see linked post. I believe this would count as one of the examples given in the federation policy https://lemm.ee/post/401063 :
An instance which is knowingly spreading CSAM into the federated network
I mean this is real free speech. We might find what they say and talk about horrible. But that’s what real free speech gets you
This is why I do not believe in free speech absolutism.
Nazi shit, pedo shit, etc. should not be tolerated and there is absolutely nothing wrong with silencing these sick fucks.
Coming from a hexbear user. lol
deleted by creator
Tankies are still toxic extremists that can be thrown into the same sack as Nazis and child abusers. They can all go fuck themselves for what they do and are.
The example you gave is a bit unfortunate - the word “Nazi” totally lost it’s meaning and the scope is ever increasing - it’s not more “bad/evil” nowadays. It’s like people forgot another words when disagreeing with someone. It could be you being banned as “nazi” some day and some chump will (mis)quote the paradox of tolerance in comments and pat themselves at the back for all the upvotes :D After all, nobody likes Nazis, right?
The word Nazi came from National Socialism, a brand of fascism. We use it to describe fascists; I think it works perfectly well.
As a German I oppose the use of the word Nazi for Non-NS-fascism. Nazis are a very distinct variety of fascism with a horrible past. This is not to be diluted by throwing in “regular” fascist dictators like Mussolini in there. That guy and his cronies were some of the worst people one can imagine, but they were nothing compared to their disgusting German counterparts.
So no, I can’t agree with you that calling fascists Nazis “works perfectly well”.So should we wait until the fascists start burning people before we worry more about semantics?
This is such a braindead response.
I think, you wanted to say “before we worry less about semantics?” Your post -at least to me- is quite nonsensical.
Besides, what do you think I said? Because I cannot for the life of me figure out how what I said ("don’t dilute the term “Nazi” because that dilutes the horrors associated with the real Nazis as well)is supposed to have any kind of suggestion for waiting in it.
If you mean that you’d have to wait for them to commit murders to be allowed to call them Nazis, then I strongly suggest you inform yourself about how Nazi ideology and other fascist ideologies work (hint: “the good of the state” vs “the good of the race”) and how this distinction acted as facilitator of all the atrocities commited by the Nazis. So if someone follows the Nazi ideology, they can be called a Nazi. Not that hard, is it? Or was that too “brain dead” for you?
Oh shit a grammar Nazi.
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t? It’s fine IRL because if you say something horrible you get shunned but online you can always find people who agree with you and those people will always make their own echo chambers and isolate themselves
Only way on such a large scale is moderation but that’s a never ending battle and requires a small group of people or single person deciding what’s acceptable
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t
Put it to a vote, simple as. This “who watches the watcher?” bit neoliberals do is nothing but concern-trolling because they have been taught the purpose of the government is to protect property rights, wage war, and nothing more.
In all avenues of life and interaction, we should pursue the use of power by collective assent to improve our conditions, including by stamping out fascists and abusers with a mind not to “justice” but to protecting the people they would victimize.
Put it to a vote, simple as
Nah voting is overrated I will be the supreme chancellor and gatekeeper of what is allowed to be said online.
This is a joke of course but that would be better than whatever this weirdo is advocating.
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t?
Yeah! Who gets to decide if it’s acceptable for me to take a shit on the floor at Arby’s? Who died and made you God Arby’s manager?
The entire model of federation is shunning. We are shunning them by defederating. We don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with them. You don’t have to interact with us, and in fact you could decide to go join the pedos and nazis and nazi pedos on their instances. You won’t, but on a technical level there is no central content moderator for all of the fediverse, only instances practicing free association and maybe cooperating to make that process easier.
But since you lack the authority to make us interact with those groups, you’re left having to choose who you’ll keep company with, and that’ll have consequences as people don’t like nazi or pedo apologists.
It’s me, I decide, and I decided nazism was bad a long time ago. You really need to get with the program dude.
The problem is who gets to decide what’s acceptable and what isn’t?
I don’t care who gets to decide as long as Nazism and pedophilia isn’t tolerated
if you say something horrible you get shunned
People are rational actors and naturally know that bad ideas are bad.If that’s how it worked we wouldn’t have fascists everywhere right now.
True there are a lot of stupid people out there but if I were to say something horrifically racist in pretty much any company I can be fairly confident I would be told exactly where to shove it though
If this was true, racism would be eradicated. It must further be stated that, though many racists are very ignorant, ascribing racism fundamentally to “stupidity” is just as worthless as ascribing it to “evil”. It is a moralizing account that cannot be usefully applied as systemic critique because it is all supposedly a matter of personal virtue.
People are racist as a strategy to prosper, first and foremost. It is not until you understand racism as a social strategy that you can fight it.
I can’t say I do understand it as a social strategy, I would hazard a guess it’s something like “if we make this group enemy #1, we can get lots of people rallied behind us and they won’t pay attention to the horrible things we do”?
I think it’s a bit ancillary but yes, one of the benefits for the racist is that by defining others as being part of the outgroup, they place themselves in the ingroup and thereby have people they can rely on with a common cause they both oppose (the flourishing of the minority group).
But probably the most concrete reason is economic (I was using “social” in its broadest sense), specifically that the brutal marginalization of minorities pushes them into the position of an underclass, whose labor value is the most exploited, meaning where ever the poor racist ends up in life, it is less likely to be there at that bottom rung, while the richer racists get cheap labor.
Yes racism just corrects itself. That’s why there’s famously no racism happening anywhere
whoa
Racism has dramatically reduced in recent years, used to be people would make racist comments in casual conversation and nobody would care
The vast, vast majority of racism is not done through casual conversation. I hope you understand that.
People still do that, it just depends on the company. Between this and some other comments, I think you are extrapolating far too much from your own anecdotal experiences.
It’s so cool how you solved racism in your head just now.
ah yes, the free market will fix it. the “marketplace of ideas.”
gtfo
and if you kept doing it, would you be asked to leave? would your “free speech” be “violated” by exclusion from decent society? I’m struggling to see the contours of your argument, where exactly you draw the line between “censorship” and “social pressure” and how you imagine that ought to translate to online spaces?
That’s definitely not universal. I personally have heard people say racist, transphobic, etc. stuff without anyone shunning them because they were co-workers, relatives and other groups you can’t shun without things getting awkward. Besides, aren’t you in fact advocating for not having Nazi and pedo shit around, since the obvious analogy for being shunned IRL would be getting banned online for being a Nazi or pedo?
I am infact quite happy to have as few Nazis and pedos in my corner of the internet as possible, just think it’s inevitable they’re going to be somewhere with the nature of self hosted platforms like lemmy
They have always had their own platforms, using forum software and the like. They will use any free software regular people will use. They always had their own isolated corners of the internet.
So then the question is whether these people would cease to be nazis or pedophiles if only they interacted with “normal” people. Decades of that mindset have gone by and the answer is “no.” They want tu be in normie spaces to convince others, they’re not going to deradicalize like that. Deradicalization is hard, time consuming for volunteers, and rare, as well as rarely complete. And even if it were effective, it is unethical to demand the people they target be the ones to deradicalize them. Nobody here signed an agreement to be a nazi pedo’s unpaid therapist.
Great and if they retreat further and further into Nazi/Pedo instances instead of engaging with the criticism and condemnation of their views and actions then that just curates for us a list of people that need to be excised from society at large. Online or otherwise.
This creates a list of people that should be placed in reeducation programs post-revolution. I don’t see a problem with it.
Why are you so worried about Nazi and pedo shit getting silenced? I am beginning to suspect you might have an ulterior motive here.
If you concentrate them all into one place they reinforce their own views and don’t get told to stfu by others on the internet, the problem is this way they don’t get silenced, just hidden
Reeducation programs sound very dystopian to me
This thread is about lemm.ee, the instance your account is on, defederating from a Nazi pedo instance. That means not having them in your corner of the internet. Why are you arguing against this?
I’m not lol just wanted to have a conversation about the topic because the “free speech except these people” viewpoint requires some objective point of reference for what’s acceptable.
It’s fairly obvious to 99% of people when it’s things like Nazis and pedos but it’s not always as clearcut with more controversial topics
Lemmy instances having their own rules and defederating from those they don’t like seems like the best solution provided there are enough of them that users can jump ship if they don’t like the way they’re run
Nah dude I just said that people should be prevented from spreading Nazi or Pedo shit and you come in here with your contrarian bullshit.
Free speech does not, and frankly should not exist.
You said something horrible in your implicit defense of Nazi and Pedo shit being allowed to be spread. Now you are getting shunned for it. How’s that working out for you?
You get to decide. Is this instance not democratic when it comes to federation instance decisions? Hexbear admins give us a vote on a per-instance basis.
Shut up, nerd
Now let’s see how they react to saying something horrible and getting shunned for it lol.
Oh wait now they’re gonna complain about Hexbear bullies. Calling it now.
Yeah it’s probably a good idea to decouple from that car.
says rimjob steve
Yeah we just defederated recently. Abhorrent server. We are also considering adopting the fediseer censure list because there are a lot of other problematic instances.
Everything they don’t like is Bigotry…
There is no “they”. Every server has the ability to tailor its own federation list, fediseer simply spreads out the labor of actually poring through hundreds of different websites by providing a centralized repository of information. We can take that information and use it however we want.
I’m sure we at least agree that CSAM is completely unacceptable, right? So there are some servers that need to be defederated and censured. The only question is how many, and what other problematic behaviors also qualify, and the answer will be slightly different for each server.
Does that alleviate your concerns?
Im just annoyed by the default instances on your website and their very common use of “bigotry” as reason to defederate, i don’t actually care about what other instances do as long as Shitjustworks holds up to its name.
Ok, fair enough. It’s not my website, it was created by db0 and rikudou. Many thanks to those two for doing important work for Lemmy 🫡
I’m not 100% sure on how Lemmy works with federation, but isnt there a risk of illegal content being mirrored to your instance if someone here hits a post from the bad server too ?
Oh wow. Those folks are off the rails… read some discussions over there to see what it’s all about… oooooh boy!
Do you have an example of CSAM being posted there?
Just mentioning paraphilias in the description is a bit light, especially with the rest of it being pretty tame and inclusive…
They could probably be talking about legal paraphilias like cars and tentacle monsters
Edit: ah nevermind they host a lot of kid stuff
Their biggest communities are those devoted to pedo shit. We can safely write this instance off.
Yeah. I don’t even want to post it
This creates a question. Not this specific content, but on the political side of the content. It may be illegal in US, but legal in Russia and vice versa.
How does fediverse address this?
Not relying on legalistic justifications, for one. Legality is a constraint of whoever the host would be arrested by. It’s not a substitute for having your own standards. You shouldn’t need a legal justification to ban pedos or nazis, no matter where you live. We can’t stop them from making their own online spaces, but we are not obligated to share our spaces with them.
