which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, they haven’t had elections in how long? Netanyahu is basically the George W Bush of Israel, curating the current situation in order to create the theatre of war. Meanwhile there are some ridiculously powerful Arab countries right next door who talk a lot of shit about Israel but curiously won’t lift a finger to aid Palestine. Why is that?
The leaders on both sides are at fault. And their neighbours leaders. And world leaders. We need everyday people to stand up to this populist war mongering bullshit. Fuck the nepo babies who inherit their positions of power and influence - if we don’t say something now we’re all doomed.
Hamas has called for elections numerous times in the last decades. Israel and the US’s client government in the west bank, the Palestinian authority, refuses because they recognize that they will lose. Hamas is at no fault. As a resistance organization they are of the utmost moral standing. They engaged in symmetric military combat with the Israeli military in a textbook act of honorable military resistance when they had no obligation to. They display humaneness towards Israeli colonizers that defies all the brutality that Israel has visited upon the Palestinian people. This is a war against colonialism and imperialism. The belligerents in this war are the united states and Israel. What needs to happen is that they are defeated.
Fuck the Israeli government with a cactus, but that doesn’t mean Hamas is anything other than horrible. Groups of “the utmost moral standing” don’t seek out civilian casualties or rape women in the street or accept funding from the Israeli government to keep the “war” (oppression and genocide of Palestinians) going as long as possible
The reality is they did not target civilians, they only targetted soldiers and policemen, and they did not rape anyone on the 7th of October. The first point is corroborated by the testimonies of the Israelis in kibbutz be’eri who said the fighters did not harm them but asked them to call the police. In addition to the testimonies that the IDF shelled homes with their inhabitants and fighters inside, fired from helicopters onto the music festival, and shot their own citizens while trying to target qassam fighters, and the casualty figures reported by Israel itself, where 200, half of the burned unidentified bodies turned out to be Palestinians, its evident that Israel caused the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths on 7/10.
The rape and sexual assault allegations are completely uncorroborated to this day, not even one testimony or piece of evidence supports them.
This is not to imply that Palestinian resistance would be wrong to target Israeli “civilian” settlers, they would not. Settlers are active participants and beneficiaries of violence, murder, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. The social order where their comfortable lives depend on Palestinian death and subjugation must be upended. For the oppressed to inflict violence on their colonizers is for them to assert their humanity.
They literally posted videos of it, the fuck are you talking about? Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist dictatorship that Israel supports and allows to exist as an excuse to keep killing Palestinian civilians. Btw the “they don’t want to be in power but nobody will let them step down” bullshit is very tired and very obviously bullshit, you sound like a tankie trying to explain how Stalin wasn’t a dictator. Hamas isn’t fighting for the people, they’re tin pot tyrants with suitcases full of money from their supposed enemy, a convenient excuse for Israel to drive out and kill everyone in Gaza. Hamas is a pawn in Netanyahu’s game, if you hate zionism you should hate Hamas too
Show me the videos of Qassam fighters targeting civilians. Israel does not support hamas, that is delusional. They have never giver aid to hamas as a political organization. Israel funnelled money to hamas when it was a civil religious charity organization, before it had any political dimensions. They directly support the Palestinian authority. I never said hamas didn’t want to be in power. I said they called for elections. They would win these election because they are the most popular Palestinian political party. Hamas is fighting for Palestinian liberation and more successfully than any organization before it. That is a fact. All resistance of the oppressed is going to be used to justify violence and murder against them. That does not make resistance futile or helpful for the colonizer. All resistance factions would resist Israel in the same way in this position. Hamas’s Muslim ideology is irrelevant in the colonial stage.
Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
And that’s where I and most other Palestine supporters strongly disagree.
For starters, being attacked doesn’t allow the country to breach the international treaties on the law of war. Civilian massacre and “leveling of Gaza” is a grave breach of the treaties and a war crime, it should not be supported and Netanyahu and Israeli military officials are waited for in Hague, where they need to give quite an explanation for what they’ve done (and certainly get arrested).
Second, the attack on Israel was carried out by a small militant group, to which the majority of Palestinians barely holds any relation. About 200 people were taken as PoW. Israel’s response on that was unproportionate, with dozens of thousands of civilians killed, misplaced, and taken as PoWs. Regular people, people who did not attack Israel, are now finding themselves among one of the most cruel and lawless wars of the 21st century, with nobody able to protect them.
People of Palestine did not deserve this. They are civilians, and under the law of war, they should never be touched. There is a reason international community recognizes those rules, and Israel just decided to not give a damn. Israel is currently carrying more unnecessary, malicious violence and extermination than any other country on Earth.
As I said, under any circumstances, total war is not justified, and the international community has long formalized that. This conflict has shown how many people lack basic humanity to be able to universally recognize basic human rights long written in international laws and conventions.
except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
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which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, they haven’t had elections in how long? Netanyahu is basically the George W Bush of Israel, curating the current situation in order to create the theatre of war. Meanwhile there are some ridiculously powerful Arab countries right next door who talk a lot of shit about Israel but curiously won’t lift a finger to aid Palestine. Why is that?
The leaders on both sides are at fault. And their neighbours leaders. And world leaders. We need everyday people to stand up to this populist war mongering bullshit. Fuck the nepo babies who inherit their positions of power and influence - if we don’t say something now we’re all doomed.
Hamas has called for elections numerous times in the last decades. Israel and the US’s client government in the west bank, the Palestinian authority, refuses because they recognize that they will lose. Hamas is at no fault. As a resistance organization they are of the utmost moral standing. They engaged in symmetric military combat with the Israeli military in a textbook act of honorable military resistance when they had no obligation to. They display humaneness towards Israeli colonizers that defies all the brutality that Israel has visited upon the Palestinian people. This is a war against colonialism and imperialism. The belligerents in this war are the united states and Israel. What needs to happen is that they are defeated.
Fuck the Israeli government with a cactus, but that doesn’t mean Hamas is anything other than horrible. Groups of “the utmost moral standing” don’t seek out civilian casualties or rape women in the street or accept funding from the Israeli government to keep the “war” (oppression and genocide of Palestinians) going as long as possible
The reality is they did not target civilians, they only targetted soldiers and policemen, and they did not rape anyone on the 7th of October. The first point is corroborated by the testimonies of the Israelis in kibbutz be’eri who said the fighters did not harm them but asked them to call the police. In addition to the testimonies that the IDF shelled homes with their inhabitants and fighters inside, fired from helicopters onto the music festival, and shot their own citizens while trying to target qassam fighters, and the casualty figures reported by Israel itself, where 200, half of the burned unidentified bodies turned out to be Palestinians, its evident that Israel caused the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths on 7/10.
The rape and sexual assault allegations are completely uncorroborated to this day, not even one testimony or piece of evidence supports them.
This is not to imply that Palestinian resistance would be wrong to target Israeli “civilian” settlers, they would not. Settlers are active participants and beneficiaries of violence, murder, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. The social order where their comfortable lives depend on Palestinian death and subjugation must be upended. For the oppressed to inflict violence on their colonizers is for them to assert their humanity.
They literally posted videos of it, the fuck are you talking about? Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist dictatorship that Israel supports and allows to exist as an excuse to keep killing Palestinian civilians. Btw the “they don’t want to be in power but nobody will let them step down” bullshit is very tired and very obviously bullshit, you sound like a tankie trying to explain how Stalin wasn’t a dictator. Hamas isn’t fighting for the people, they’re tin pot tyrants with suitcases full of money from their supposed enemy, a convenient excuse for Israel to drive out and kill everyone in Gaza. Hamas is a pawn in Netanyahu’s game, if you hate zionism you should hate Hamas too
Show me the videos of Qassam fighters targeting civilians. Israel does not support hamas, that is delusional. They have never giver aid to hamas as a political organization. Israel funnelled money to hamas when it was a civil religious charity organization, before it had any political dimensions. They directly support the Palestinian authority. I never said hamas didn’t want to be in power. I said they called for elections. They would win these election because they are the most popular Palestinian political party. Hamas is fighting for Palestinian liberation and more successfully than any organization before it. That is a fact. All resistance of the oppressed is going to be used to justify violence and murder against them. That does not make resistance futile or helpful for the colonizer. All resistance factions would resist Israel in the same way in this position. Hamas’s Muslim ideology is irrelevant in the colonial stage.
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since… kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went “Well this is some Nazi shit.”
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Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
That’s all Israelis including non-Jews afaik, when we specify Israeli Jews the number is allegedly at least 50-60% being of mainly European descent.
The more reasonable and manageable timeframe might be closer to living generations currently in existence.
The hyperbole kind of misses its intended mark when itself misses the context of a call for context.
Derp a derp
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
If Hamas is wiped out then yes, that is what total war is.
If Hamas really cared for the people under its authority, it would not have attacked nor would it use them as human shields.
hamas is a terrorist organization that does not encapsulate all Palestinians. That’d be like killing everyone in the US to dispose of the KKK.
Don’t threaten me with a good time
yea it’d almost be like, if the kkk was the government
“Points to the GOP”
Here’s a more apt analogy: It’d be like killing everyone in North Korea to get Kim Jong Un and pals
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim “total war is justified”. I say it’s pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: “Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.”
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
And that’s where I and most other Palestine supporters strongly disagree.
For starters, being attacked doesn’t allow the country to breach the international treaties on the law of war. Civilian massacre and “leveling of Gaza” is a grave breach of the treaties and a war crime, it should not be supported and Netanyahu and Israeli military officials are waited for in Hague, where they need to give quite an explanation for what they’ve done (and certainly get arrested).
Second, the attack on Israel was carried out by a small militant group, to which the majority of Palestinians barely holds any relation. About 200 people were taken as PoW. Israel’s response on that was unproportionate, with dozens of thousands of civilians killed, misplaced, and taken as PoWs. Regular people, people who did not attack Israel, are now finding themselves among one of the most cruel and lawless wars of the 21st century, with nobody able to protect them.
People of Palestine did not deserve this. They are civilians, and under the law of war, they should never be touched. There is a reason international community recognizes those rules, and Israel just decided to not give a damn. Israel is currently carrying more unnecessary, malicious violence and extermination than any other country on Earth.
As I said, under any circumstances, total war is not justified, and the international community has long formalized that. This conflict has shown how many people lack basic humanity to be able to universally recognize basic human rights long written in international laws and conventions.
missed the /s?