Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him “don’t understand” their religion.
“I’m going to go out on a NOT limb here: this man is not a Christian,” Kinzinger said on X, formerly known as Twitter, responding to Trump’s Christmas post. “If you are a Christian who supports him you don’t understand your own religion.”
Kinzinger, one of Trump’s fiercest critics in the GOP, said in his post that “Trump is weak, meager, smelly, victim-ey, belly-achey, but he ain’t a Christian and he’s not ‘God’s man.’”
I don’t think so. He’s not saying they aren’t “true” Christians, an undefinable standard of "true. He’s saying they don’t understand it. Christ flipped the tables and whipped the money changers, these people worship a real estate speculator. Christ’s message is one of social welfare and commonwealth, conservative populists literally killed Jesus for blasphemy.
Like, he’s right, they don’t understand it. I went to Christian Sunday school. There wasn’t one lesson about taking health insurance from poor people and charging interest on school lunch debt.
I’m not sure what distinction you’re trying to make. He’s saying these Christians don’t understand their religion, as in they’re not following what he thinks Christianity is supposed to be. That’s the very definition of the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy.
You’re doing it too, honestly. What you learned in Sunday school doesn’t match how these republicans are interpreting it, so they’re not following the real teachings.
I’m saying you can look through the history of the official stances of the Christian church and find many, many examples of sanctioned atrocities. You may not like it, but Christianity has never been what’s printed on the tin.
If we are going that road you could argue that much of the “Christian church” has split pretty far from Christ’s actual teachings.
Sure. Or that the original teachings were all over the place to begin with, because it’s an amalgamation of various regional beliefs and stories meant to gain political and social control over areas it spread to, adopting and bastardising random beliefs it encountered. Because that’s what literally happened.
Eventually the Catholic and Anglican churches decided which books/teachings would be ‘correct’ based on what whomever was in charge at the time wanted. There are many books that were included or excluded from the bible because they were convenient or inconvenient, and the end result was a weird, inconsistent mess. The Catholic Church’s official library has what’s now considered banned texts that were official canon a few centuries ago. What changed that made them wrong? Politics.
And of course the three major Abrahamic religions can’t agree over whose interpretation is correct, to the point of genocide. But yeah, one sect of evangelical Christianity is ‘right’ such that we should all be subjected to it.
Jesus wasn’t socialist, he literally said to leave to Caesar that which is Caesar’s. He wanted to part of government, and instead pointed people to the government of heaven.
His message was for individuals to choose to help the poor on their own, not to use the government to force everyone to help the poor. The message was always about the individual, not the group, and it wasn’t until the Acts that we start to talk about the “church” and any kind of centralization. He said, “follow me,” not “organize yourselves into communes.”
So no, I absolutely do not think Jesus was a socialist, he was the polar opposite of Trump. He shared a message of tolerance, love, and personal improvement, whereas Trump shares a message of intolerance, hate, and blaming others for your problems.
Nope. He never once said “don’t rely on government”. You made that part up. He said give Caesar his taxes, knowing that those taxes will go to pay for free food and entertainment for the public “bread and circuses”. The reason he didn’t talk more about government is because his country was under the equivalent of foreign military occupation and all the decisions were made in a distant capital of which he would have had zero influence. His message was for everyone to do everything they can to help the poor, and in particular for rich people to redistribute their wealth to the poor. And only if they did that would rich people be eligible for heaven. Jesus used Yahweh’s coercion in place of government coercion.
No, he said give Caesar his taxes because that’s a moral and legal obligation. Here’s the NIV translation, which makes it clear (Mark 12:15-18):
Nowhere in that exchange did he mention what it would be used for, just that it’s Caesar’s and he deserves it back. That’s it, that’s the only mention he made of the government, and he mentions the current leader, not the state itself (e.g. he could’ve said “Rome” instead of “Caesar” if he wanted to make commentary about the government).
And later in that same chapter, he talks about the offering of the widow:
He obviously cares far more about the gifts to God than the taxes paid to the government, so the whole point of the exchange was to highlight that gifts to God are more important than obligations to governments.
You can also look at the rich man that came to Jesus asking what he lacked (the camel through the eye of the needle thing), and the advice was to give to the poor and follow Jesus, not to become a philanthropist and lift the poor out of poverty. The gift God cares most about is humility and meekness, so giving to the poor was never the point, the point was to eliminate worldly desires to serve God.
That’s a constant theme throughout the New Testament, especially in the gospels. When Jesus healed people, he didn’t do it to ease their suffering, he did it to give them a chance to repent and serve God. Every time he did so, he admonished them to repent and sin no more. The focus is always on the next life and serving God, not on this life.
And that’s why I’m disgusted with many modern Christians, they like to donate large amounts for recognition instead of quietly giving like Jesus did. They’re like those people in the temple giving large amounts, not the poor widow who gave the only pennies she had. Your gift to others should be live and compassion, trying to amass wealth to give more to the poor misses the point.
Nope. Julius Caesar was long dead by this time. Tiberius was the emperor when Jesus lived. After before him, Augustus.
These aren’t gifts because there is coercion involved that is far greater than government coercion. If you don’t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured forever by the devil. Anything the government can do to you pales in comparison to Yahweh’s coercion.
You made this part up. Again. He didn’t say anything about obligations to governments, except that you should pay your taxes.
Starting with Tiberius, Roman emperors gave their heirs the name “Caesar,” such that “Caesar” came to be known as the term used for the emperor or his heir (i.e. it’s the root of kaiser in German, tsar in Russia, “qaysar” in the Ottoman Empire). Tiberius wasn’t born with the name and adopted it later, and took the honorific “Augustus” when he took the throne. So “Caesar Augustus” was the emperor, and “Caesar” was either the emperor (shorthand) or the heir. It’s kind of like a mix between family name and title, so “Caesar” can refer to any of the line of dictators following Julius Caesar, or it can refer to the title of the emperor or his heir.
So that’s why I understand “Caesar” in this context as whoever the ruling dictator is, not the government or society as a whole. This isn’t an admonition to act in the greater good, but to show obedience to those in charge, which is a theme I’ll get back to later.
Jesus never says this. The only thing that’s close is the “eye of a needle” allegory, and the intention seems to communicate that it’s incredibly difficult, though not impossible. He has been more explicit about hard requirements elsewhere:
::: Matthew 5:20 - righteousness must exceed scribes and Pharisees (outward righteousness)
::: John 3:3,16 - just be born again
::: John 3:16 - believe in Jesus
So Jesus hasn’t hesitated to use direct language, so it doesn’t make sense to take this as “it’s impossible.” In fact, just before the “eye of a needle” allegory, he says it’s merely difficult.
::: Mark 10:20-23 - difficult for those with wealth to enter the kingdom of God
So it’s not the money itself that’s the problem, but the love of money. You’re not going to hell because you have a lot of money, you’re going to hell because you love it more than God, who has been explicit in what’s most important.
::: Matthew 22:36-40) - love God first, love you neighbor second
A wealthy person should feel obligated to help their fellow man because that’s what God would do. But the actual law is to love God and your fellow man with all your heart, and that’s possible while having a lot of wealth, just incredibly unlikely because most with wealth get it by being selfish.
In short, if you feel God wants you to give everything away, you should not hesitate to do it, and that hesitation is what damned the rich young man, despite being otherwise righteous.
His Apostles did, such as Paul:
::: Romans 13:1-7 - be subject to governing authorities
Jesus taught obedience consistently, and the Apostles taught what Jesus taught, so I see this as a retelling of what Jesus taught, not something new Paul came up with.
So to me, the message is very clear, Jesus and God expect obedience, both to earthly rulers as well as heavenly ones. And here’s how Jesus expects leaders to rule:
::: Matthew 20:25-28 - Jesus admonishes rulers to serve those they lead, not be served
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” :::
So you must obey your leaders, and Jesus expects to leaders to serve those they lead. In that way everyone serves each other, but there’s also order.
Why did you supply all those quotes that were irrelevant?
The emperor was the “Augustus”. “Caesar” was the heir. Either way it makes my point. It was talking about the government, not a specific person.
It means that it is almost impossible for “rich” men to go to heaven. Like one in a million. George Bush? Hell. Carly Fiorina? Hell. Betsy Devos? Hell. None of those people have anywhere near the humility and meekness to be the one in a million rich people who don’t go to hell.
I couldn’t get the spoiler tag to work properly, and my intention was to establish cases where Jesus was explicit about requirements to establish how language is used.
If Jesus meant being wealthy would disqualify you from heaven, he would’ve said so, but instead he said it’s “difficult.” That’s an important distinction and shows that the root of the problem isn’t the money itself (else why would Job have received so many riches after his trial?). The thing that disqualifies you is loving material things more than God, not having the material things.
No, “Caesar” was the family name of the ruling family, as in the dynasty name. After Tiberius, the ruler was usually named “Caesar Augustus,” with “Augustus” being an honorific, much like “the honorable.”
So “Caesar” was likely commonly used to refer to the ruling family, much like we might say “the Bidens” in the US. So Jesus was simply saying, “give to the ruler that which is the ruler’s,” not “pay your taxes so you can help you fellow man.” Paying taxes was a moral obligation to promote social order, giving to God was a moral obligation to show obedience and love for God. If anything, the money given to the temple was used for more good than taxes.
Exactly (though it’s not your place to judge, that’s God’s job). It’s not the money that’s the issue here, the issue is prioritizing worldly things over God.
If we use the gate example (again, that’s in question by experts), the idea is that to get through the gate, the camel needs to leave behind its baggage, because otherwise it’s too tall to fit. A wealthy person needs to be willing to leave all their wealth behind you be with God, and that’s less likely because of the way most people get their wealth. I’m not saying that’s what Jesus meant, but it does have a lot of merit and fits nicely with the rest of his message.
If the young man said he’s willing to give up everything to follow Jesus, he would’ve compared him to Job or something as a good example of what one “should” do. Worldly wealth and status are irrelevant to God, and he should be the one we want to impress, and we do that by aligning our will with his (e.g. he wants to see suffering alleviated, sinners repent, etc).
And that’s my entire point here. Nothing Jesus said indicates what form of government we should have, his message was for individuals to align their will with God’s and follow his example. That’s it.
He didn’t say it’s merely “difficult”. He essentually said it is almost impossible. That doesn’t mean only 1 in every 5 rich people can go to heaven. That means 1 in every 5000 or 1 in every 50000.
Nope. Not a dynasty name. It was the name of the heir to the throne. But yes “Caesar” was symbolic of the government itself.
You are mixing up socialism and communism. Fair enough, Jesus wasn’t a socialist, because he lived millennia before that particular political stance was coined, but the examples you give kind of actually support the argument that he would have been a socialist if he lived today/he espoused an early type of socialism. Paying taxes, helping the poor, individual responsibility; these are all things a modern day socialist would support. Organising into communes - not so much.
Also, it seems you are suggesting Donald Trump is a socialist? If so you’ve completely misunderstood the meaning of any kind of socialism.
Jesus would’ve been closer to communist, which is a stateless society based on communal ownership. He asked how followers to eliminate personal possessions and follow him, presumably subsisting on the charity of others. That’s the spirit of communism.
Socialism, on the other hand, is democratic ownership of the means of production. Jesus wanted no part in ownership of anything, much less socializing ownership of communal goods. He believed in following the law, but only so far as his legal and moral obligation went. He never discussed setting up poor houses, redistribution of wealth, or anything a socialist might push for, he instead urged his followers to follow his example in helping the poor.
If we have to ascribe a political philosophy, he’s a libertarian who is morally opposed to personal ownership, but also opposed to forceful removal of ownership. He’d rather live destitute than force others to share, because this life is ephemeral and true rewards are in heaven.
No, Trump is not a socialist, he’s a narcissist. He would support a socialist policy if it meant he could get recognition for it (see COVID checks, which he insisted bear his name).
Jesus, on the other hand, told people to not tell others he healed them (Luke 5:12-14). Jesus didn’t want recognition, he just wanted to do good and set a good example. That’s the sense that Trump is the opposite of Jesus, not wrt policy, but the examples they each set.
And yeah, Trump would be a socialist if he thought that would get him into power. He doesn’t really care about policy, he cares about fame and money, and money only because it buys fame. Jesus rejected both from Satan (Matthew 4:1-11, esp verses 8-10):
Trump worships himself, Jesus calls others to worship his father.