They’re just like maga, “Debate me bro.” And then they proceed to reject all the facts and logic that you provide, while getting upset when you dismiss the alternative “facts” that they make up.
Like, what is this? “Argues without insulting us” AND “Argues without tone policing”? So, what, tankies want to be the only ones who can tone police and insult their counterparts in an argument?
Like, pick one or the other and apply the same rules to both sides. Ideally neither side throws insults, and either side can tone police. But don’t say “we can do both, and you can do neither.” That’s the same “rules for thee, not for me” rhetoric that all authoritarians use, whether on the left or on the right.
Tankies are just covert fascists. Prove me wrong.
thats why i offered the baseline lol
There’s no rationally debating them. It’s like trying to rationally debate maga. They’ll ignore everything you say and make up scenarios that would make you the clear loser, and then bludgeon the strawman to death with insults and repeat themselves over and over no matter how many times you point out how irrational they’re being…
“What is not reasoned in, cannot be reasoned out.”
Something all too common with extremists. It’s fruitless to argue with facts and logic™ since they live in a different reality.
The only way to get through to them is playing therapist and figuring out their emotions and getting them to question themselves. Questions like, why does China have a stock exchange? Why can’t you be gay in Russia? Why did Lenin say don’t let Stalin take control? That’s why they band together so much and silence all opposition that ask questions, they can’t risk thinking inwards. They need to affirm each other, while non-extremists don’t need to, since reality is on their side.
I agree mostly with that but i also, personally, need to keep on top of adequately questioning my own reasoning.
Just because i think reality is on my side doesn’t make it automatically true, I’m not immune to propaganda or fallacious logic.
Even worse (for me personally) is the trap of assuming my subjective (and relatively well reasoned ) correctness in other conversations carries over in to whatever conversation I’m having right now.
A sense of conversational and intellectual superiority can be an insidious path to closed mind.
Absolutely, that’s why introspection is so important
Yeah, all extremists do that. It’s such a shame.
Fortunately Tankies are extremely passive and weak, they’re not at all like MAGA, who are full-blown fascists.
Unfortunately tankies haven’t realized that yet. They still think they have a chance in hell of waging a successful revolution 🙄
Oh they realise it, that’s why they larp about violence and their fantasies of it.
Which facts and logic were provided?
In which context? I’m not gonna summarize every argument I’ve ever had with a tankie for you. Be reasonable.
Well, you’re posting about a thread that went down on Hexbear where goat was engaging with us. I’m curious to know what facts and logic were actually provided that the “tankies” rejected.
And you’re posting in a thread that’s not. Your point? I’m not here to pick up goat’s debate. I’m not even talking about that thread. I’m talking about literally every argument that I’ve ever personally had with a tankie, and I’m not going to summarize them all for you.
Also, you can hardly blame him for engaging with you on a post that literally said “Gee, I wish someone who isn’t a tankie would engage with us.” And it looks like y’all didn’t even get to the debate part, because you just told him to fuck off as soon as he said he would.
We did get to the debate part, you can click the link and see how it went down. Goat was asked to provide a defense for points they made stating that Palestine ought to resist only by adopting Western liberal ideals, and that resistance by military means is illegitimate. They refused to actually elaborate on that point.
When prompted on forming revolutionary organizations in the United States, goat claimed that such an effort is useless because Americans will never amount to anything because they are too distracted.
When universal human rights are denounced as “Western liberal ideals”, we know that you have no interest in an actual debate.
Those were Goat’s words. Goat said the following:
don’t rape, don’t carry out terrorism on innocent civilians
The right way was using the internet and global attention, which Palestine was doing, raising awareness of how they are suffering and gaining sympathy for it. They should’ve adopted more Western ideals, or maybe liberalism, encourage foreigners to come and stay. The West Bank and Gaza near Rafah were also doing decently well in terms of growth, labelling itself as a trendy tourist destination.
Unfortunately, Hamas decided that raping women and killing innocent civilians was a better method of resistance, even going so far as to film themselves carrying out the massacre and taking hostages – Which incurred the Israeli military and ended up with Gaza being turned to rubble. Sure, people are much more aware of Palestine now, but only the most radical of “progressives” think Israel can be defeated and that Palestine can do no wrong. These people are vocal minorities and hold no power.
The whole relationship between Israel and the US isn’t as buddy-buddy as people think it is. Israel previously attacked US forces and regularly threatens US personnel. No clue what goes on behind the scenes, but clearly Israel has something major on the US, or the US sees Israel as a base for Middle-East operations and considers the chaos that comes with it as a necessary sacrifice. Or maybe it’s both, or maybe it’s neither.
That wasn’t a debate at all lol
I never argued for any of my points because I didn’t see why I should bother to argue them, it wouldn’t convince any tankie and hearing the same slogans from the same redsails sources and talking points won’t do much to convince me (perhaps if it was from something more reputable or argued in favour of individual freedoms, such as the workers) – I don’t really bother with any argument unless there’s a baseline we can fall back on, which I offered.
Rape is also not resistance, it’s predation, it’s poison. Do you think the civil rights movement succeeded with raping their oppressors? No. They primarily used non-violence – And if you’re going to argue that violence was what succeeded, know that racists make the same arguments.
And I stand by what I said on the US populace, they are too cowardly, and so are Tankies, as evidently displayed.
(This was removed by automod, I’ve gone ahead and restored the comment)
One would almost think this a joke screenshot.
sometimes i consider if it’s just a massive troll, but then i wander into their chatrooms and it’s just nonstop bitching and moaning lol
must be tiring being a keyboard warrior fighting against capitalism and fascism by posting memes
As opposed to the keyboard warrior fighting in favor of those things?
See, that’s where you guys keep getting caught up, which I brought up in the slop thread. You’re so ingrained with US propaganda and indoctrination that you can’t possibly fathom anything that isn’t tribal or campist. You can say both things are bad. Being in opposition against one thing, such as me opposing authoritarianism, doesn’t automatically make me encouraging of capitalism or fascism (as if fascism and authoritarianism are opposites lol)
If you think that means I’m saying both sides should get along or that you should be centrist, then that shows how deep this indoctrination can be. Both can be bad. You don’t have to take any label or side of anything.
got banned for pointing out that they can’t pull a revolution when they can’t even handle words like… GASP…
idiot
Mod accidentally revealed his IQ of 80
Room temp IQ but can’t afford the heating bill.
Goat’s just lying here though, they got banned because of what happened in this thread:
Hmmm… some convincing evidence. Guess there is only one way to resolve this:
goat, what’s your stance on palestine?
Israel should leave it alone, and it should leave Israel alone. They both have the right to exist.
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is needlessly cruel.
Hamas is evil and a terrorist force that raped and massacred innocents, it also regularly silences Palestinian voices as well. Neighbouring countries like Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt should do more to help the Palestinians.
My opinion on I/P is the same as any other conflict on the other side of the world, my country is so far removed from the conflict that there’s nothing we can do except send strongly worded letters. I’m rather nihilistic that they’ll ever find peace, considering the region has been in a state of perpetual war for thousands of years.
i also have some cringe ideas for peace if you want to hear them
I always suspected the tankies may have been wrong
For Tankies anyone who doesn’t believe that Israel should face complete and utter destruction are zionists.
That’s not why you were banned. You were banned for Zionism because you were providing a non-defense for your stance that the correct thing for Palestinians to do is not resist genocide.
https://reddthat.com/post/58007592/24067404
That’s the thread where goat got banned.
Don’t rape people, it’s as easy as that
Immediately going for their point 3 in their reply. It couldn’t be any funnier.
Most of their grievances with THE LIBS are projections
They want us to debate with them but they ban us when they lose. Typical ML getting rid of people who become dangerous to their belief in their worldview.
As opposed to other spaces, where they don’t ban you.
The fact you weren’t banned by goat for ban evasion shows that the ban was a false positive by the automod. Ask goat to unban your other account.
It’s an instance ban, can’t do anything about that. If they posted here with their main alt account it’ll be allowed.
The main alt was banned by the automod too though.
Nah, I mean the main alt they use to regularly post in non-tankie threads, not a new account
What’s it called?
i dont know lol thats why im asking them to use it instead
You tripped the spam prevention bot, which is why you got booted. If you check modlog, I rarely ban users permanently unless they’re trolling nonstop and have raked up many reports
Even then, I don’t need to explain any ban or justify it when you ban first.
Goat wasn’t banned for winning a debate. Goat was banned for Zionism.
Can you link the removed post? Because in his other posts I can’t recognize said assumed Zionism.
The Zionism in question is with regards to what goat is defending (really, they’re not defending it outright because it appears they were afraid of getting banned). I made a thread about it separately, https://lemmy.ml/post/41587368?scrollToComments=true
Essentially what goat is saying is that Palestinians are not allowed to resist Israel militarily, only by cultural means. This is particularly heinous because Palestinians have been using peaceful means to resist Israel since the Nakba. That’s what BDS is, that’s what the 2018 March of Return was. Palestinians have made tons of efforts to peacefully assert their human rights because they generally don’t even have much to fight with, anyway. They don’t have a state, they don’t have modern military capabilities beyond the things they’re capable of refurbishing after the IDF drops hardware in Gaza, and they’re cut off from their allies by the Israeli blockade around Gaza. What a lot of Zionists don’t understand is that the Palestinian Resistance is the last resort of Palestine because they are being exterminated.
A lot of goat’s argument centered on claims of sexual violence committed against women during October 7th. This is a false narrative that Hamas ordered mass sexual assault, and Israel never presented serious evidence of this. This is the position of the scholars of this conflict, too, it’s generally regarded that there’s no evidence that any mass rape took place that day. That’s why I was saying this was nothing more than Hasbara (i.e. official Israeli propaganda) and why they got banned so quickly.
Also I think you are assuming a bit much of goat’s intentions and meanings. He doesn’t deny that Palestine has a right to defend itself. He is saying that Hamas killing civilians is not a legitimate form of self-defense. Much like the IDF killing civilians must be condemned. It is rather goat critiquing Hamas’ actions.
Well Goat is specifically saying that Hamas ought to use the internet instead of something, right? I can understand criticizing the murder of civilians during October 7th. However, to this day it’s not known how many civilians Hamas killed in their operation. The figure of 1200 dead Israelis has never been broken down into military and civilian casualties. Israel has also admitted there was massive amounts of friendly fire. So even condemning Hamas for “killing innocent civilians” is questionable; after all, how could Hamas actually carry out a military operation against Israel without killing civilians, when Israel has always made strategic use of the combination of the civilian population as settler colonialists, and the military apparatus that can protect them while maintaining a veneer of legality?
The documentary No Other Land did a very good job of showing that latter point, by the way. In Israel the settlers and the military act hand in hand. If you want to do a military operation against them, it’s never going to be fully possible to be discriminate, even if it’s desirable to have a legitimate resistance movement.
There were at least several hundred civilian casualties. Don’t try to play that game. If there were that many soldiers among the dead, they wouldn’t have gotten that far. Additionally a huge portion of the dead were at the techno festival and at the kibbutzim.
I don’t agree with Israel’s actions against Palestinians and them trying to act like many civilian victims were terrorists. You shouldn’t drop to that level though. We are better than that. Don’t try to justify crimes against humanity, regardless who it is.
Additionally a huge portion of the dead were at the techno festival and at the kibbutzim.
That’s right, but that’s also where the friendly fire took place, according to Asa Winstanley’s article that I linked.
Look, all in all it’s probably true that Hamas murdered several hundred civilians that day regardless. But I also don’t think there’s a viable way for a paramilitary group based in Gaza to do an uprising against Israel that doesn’t end with several hundred civilians dead, as I explained, because Israel is a settler-colony and the use of settlers as the tip of the spear of the Israeli effort to settle Palestine is a central part of the project.
Moral comparisons between the actions Israel and Palestine take are always apples to oranges. You simply can’t equate violence against the oppressed to violence against the oppressor. A future without violence against anyone is what the oppressed are attempting to build by defending themselves against their oppressors, after all, but you can’t defend yourself without violence.
No, I said that Palestinians should use social media (which they are—that’s good!), enlighten the rest of the world about their conditions, interact more with the rest of the world, and encourage people to come and visit, which is a very liberal approach. Whether or not you dislike liberalism, you have to cater for it as liberalism is the majority. I argued for tourism as that’s the only possible way for Palestine to generate income and allow foreigners to experience Palestine, considering how little land they have, and how often Israel moves on said land.
The fact that you immediately consider that Hamas and Palestinians are the same is grossly telling about your honesty and your position in the conflict. Hamas silences and controls Palestinians from speaking or acting out against them. Here’s a clip from the BBC, which managed to bypass security, showing a grieving mother curse Hamas over the loss of her son, and the men quickly silence her, putting their hands over her mouth.
There are many other clips and examples of Hamas oppressing dissenting Palestinians, but you won’t care for that, so I won’t bother.
Your sources are also shit and unconvincing. I personally aim for sources that are non-biased and, in the case of I/P, very high in their factual reporting.
This is what I found on the topic of r*pe on Oct. 7. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/17/questions-and-answers-hamas-led-armed-groups-october-7-2023-assault-israel#_Toc171593941%3A~%3Atext=Gender-Based+Violence-%2CWhat+were+the+main+Human+Rights+Watch+findings+regarding+sexual+and+gender-based+violence+on+October+7%3F%2C-The+extent+to
You can say rape here
Thank you for a source.
Human Rights Watch was not able to gather verifiable information through interviews with survivors of or witnesses to rape during the assault on October 7, and there is only one public account reportedly from such a survivor.
Read further. Other investigators found at least one survivor of sexual assault and at least three witnesses to gang r*pe.
I am not saying you or goat are right. Sexual assault did happen, but it is uncertain if it was en masse due to the lack of testimony and whether anyone among the dead are victims of SA.
Those who interviewed the witnesses:
concluded that there were “reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the October 7 attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”
There wasn’t necessarily 3 separate occasions of gang rpe, there were at least 3 locations where either rpe or gang r*pe occured. Later on they state that it was unclear that any of this sexual violence was planned at all,
Available evidence did not permit Human Rights Watch to draw conclusions regarding the specific identity of those who committed crimes involving sexual and gender-based, or whether these crimes were planned by the Palestinian armed groups who ordered the attacks.
My honest assessment here is that it’s unclear how much Hamas is culpable for this. I’d encourage you to check out Norm Finkelstein’s analysis of this report and others from his interview with Robinson Erhardt. I can fully understand if you want to err on the side of caution and say that this is condemnable in the absence of some evidence that it was only the actions of individual Hamas fighters disobeying orders.
These aren’t anonymous users or strangers to each other in the slightest.
I mean you’re like their Cowbee.
Cowbee actually defends his arguments and isn’t afraid to say them when he’s in communities that disagree with him
Here’s goat doing the exact opposite: https://reddthat.com/post/58007592/24065167
I honestly just made the comparison from a perception point of view. Unlike Cowbee who sugar coats and inflates his arguments just to pretend that he can be swayed. He just just overwhelms anyone who tries to point out his lies. Goat on the other hand can be swayed and is honest. He Doesn’t try to overwhelm you, can be short and concise when necessary.
I have infinitely more respect towards a person who sometimes can lose it rather than propaganda mouthpiece who writes so much that he contradicts himself frequently enough to have a schizophrenic debate with himself.
Cowbee uses numerous fallacies, biased sources and politician rhetoric by deliberately avoiding strong points and resorting to Mott and Baileys when backed into a corner. He ends up winning the ‘rhetoric’ war rather than the factual one because that’s really all he can afford
Translation: Write me a new religion and convince me my current religion is crap. Anything less and you’re wasting your breath.
No thank you.
This does seem like you had some kind of history of interaction with them, so you wouldn’t just be anyone to them.
If you aren’t just any random person offering them to talk, you must have known that your personal relationship is loaded with a preexisting emotional sentiment.
I would assume that you already knew exactly how they would respond and only made your offer intending to post the response here.
This is a perfect example of acting in bad faith imo.
funnily enough i’ve only interacted with hexbear one other time and that was then they federated with the entirety of Lemmy as a way to troll. Unfortunately for them they didn’t consider that meant anyone could venture into hexbear. hexbear ended up defederating from all of lemmy within 24 hours. it was a humiliating defeat for them
my relationship with hexbear is one of their own circlejerking, they didn’t even know I agreed with them on the US. They also don’t know any of my views.
true i expected to be banned and i did predict this sort of response. thats why i offered in good faith a baseline of stuff we agree on. Regardless, it’s telling that you’re not calling them bad faith for knowingly making a bait post asking people to come talk with them, which will get anyone who actually engages with them banned
would it also not be further in bad faith if I were to use a different identity? that seems dishonest, no? and why is it on me if they can’t control their emotions? i’ve had them harass me nonstop, attempt to dox me multiple times, threaten to kill me numerous times, create fake nudes and regularly spread false information about me, but I never get volatile, i’m a very relaxed goat
funnily enough i’ve only interacted with hexbear one other time and that was then they federated with the entirety of Lemmy as a way to troll. Unfortunately for them they didn’t consider that meant anyone could venture into hexbear. hexbear ended up defederating from all of lemmy within 24 hours. it was a humiliating defeat for them
This is blatant revisionism.
Hexbear attempted to federate with the rest of Lemmy but some of the largest instances such as lemmy.world and lemmy.blahaj.zone defederated from us first. Lemmy.world in particular famously pre-emptively defederated us before ever being federated, as documented in this thread (where they also state that defederation should always be considered as a last resort, you know, pre-emptively defederating Hexbear as a last resort). We were federated with lemmy.blahaj.zone for longer but once they took in a huge number of refugees from reddit /r/196 their largest comm became a lifeboat comm for that subreddit, and they were very unhappy with us; this eventually devolved into a conflict where Ada, their lead admin, decided to defederate Hexbear as a way to appease the moderator of 196. Hexbear generally has a conciliatory attitude towards blahaj to this day and many of our trans users would like to refederate eventually, but this hasn’t happened yet.
Generally, Hexbear likes being federated with more instances because it allows us to spread propaganda more. That’s the incentive in place and we like doing it. Other instances are the ones who generally don’t like receiving tons of people like myself who are very argumentative and post giant walls of text.
Hexbear remains federated with other big instances like SDF, reddthat, .ml (which you might call part of the tankie troika), and lemm.ee before it went down. We get wanderers from there all the time and we play nice with them.
(I didn’t ban you, you tripped the spam prevention bot. You can contact the admins and they’ll undo it)
Hexbear was the first one to defederate, not the other way around. Other instances were considering about going through with defederation, but Hexbear decided to make the call for them, partly because as I mentioned, Tankies such as yourself couldn’t handle the wave of dissent in your safespaces.
If you know of the admins of blahaj, they’ve made it very clear they do not want their instance or their identity used as political fuel, which you are doing right now. I used to do the same until they politely explained that they don’t like it, and I apologised and stopped. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons you’re still defederated, since you use identity as a weapon without actually caring for the rights of the identity. For example, you don’t care about LGBTQ rights in Russia, Iran or China, all of which make same-sex marriage illegal, instead you defend these states. Why would an LGBTQ instance ever federate with that?
If you truly enjoyed being federated, then why was Hexbear always the first to defederate?
And you most certainly don’t play nice. You told me to fuck off and then banned me lol
Hey just wanted to stop by and thank you for your service. Flood the zone!!! Inversion baby… but as a fellow fed, I just wounder after licking all the boots and mudding all the waters…welp… when do we get the spoils? Are you official or a open source useful idiot of imperialism? Anyways you are doing a GREAT job. May jesus bless you and angels kiss your cheeks. Democracy Now! - 7/8/09 - Cynthia McKinney Back in U.S. After Israeli Detainment
are you just going to troll or do you have anything insightful to add?
Justified ban
why that
Concern trolling and ban evasion. https://lemmy.world/post/35172737
i wasn’t trolling
sure i was evading a ban, but who gives a shit? you can’t stop alt accounts on fediverse, I’m sure you know this well
