Does a community get to decide who is a part of it? Who is the ‘demos’ in your democracy?

Socialism is a transitional state between capitalism and communism, where the working class holds power in society but existing social relations have not been abolished. This is precisely what you have in China and DPRK. Both are genuinely socialist.

Doubt all you like, but both the WPK and CPC are overwhelmingly proletarian parties in states where the commanding heights and backbone of the economy are publicly owned at a minimum.

I’m not an expert on DPRK history, so instead I’ll try and speak to the prominence of the Kims:

Think back to the enormous popularity the Kennedy family enjoyed in the US for decades. For a good thirty years, if you had a guy named Kennedy on your ticket, he was gonna win. Even Capcom, as recently as 2004, named their heroic American protagonist Leon S Kennedy, because the association of “Kennedy” with “Heroic/good/representative of America’s better angels” was strong in pop culture. It’s an incorrect association, but what matters is it existed.

But what did John, the one people remember most fondly, actually do to earn his reputation? Give a couple well-received speeches, have sex with a trafficked actress, propose a drawdown in Vietnam that never happened, and then get his shit blown smoove off? That’s not much of a legacy when you put it on paper, but here in America our standards are very low. with that in mind, let’s imagine a different history:

The Nazis win WW2. Doesn’t matter how, they just do. After cannibalizing Europe to rebuild their military, they cross the Atlantic with a massive fleet and start systematically dismantling the United Stated via carpet bombing. First electricity goes, then water, then food as every farm, dam and railway is destroyed. After all the infrastructure is gone they start leveling apartment blocks and houses, and entire towns are wiped off the map with few survivors every night. The bombers never stop coming, hitting even ruins where people might be hiding, scouring nearby forests with incendiaries, and allegedly (though I believe it) dropping viral and bacterial weapons with knowledge given to them by Japanese war criminals. Somewhere between one fifth and one quarter of the population is dead, starvation and disease are rampant, every single building has been leveled, and the traumatized survivors are hiding in caves. At this moment John F Kennedy shows up, leads the military in pushing the Nazis out of the northern states with help from Canada, and organizes the rebuilding of the liberated area. When the Nazis consolidate their hold on the southern states and create a military puppet government there to serve as a foothold for invasion, he oversees preparations to drive them back again. Obviously he becomes an instant folk hero, and his descendants both enjoy great political goodwill by association and experience great pressure to live up to the accomplishments of their fathers. //End hypothetical

In the US, a place that has not been touched by war in living memory, we very easily fall into the trap of thinking of other peoples as somehow sillier and more emotional, or more prone to irrational thinking. This is the message that our corporate media has always given us, through careful implication, picture choice, orientalist framing. The unspoken message is always: look at the latest inscrutable conflict these primitives have gotten themselves embroiled in now, aren’t you glad to live somewhere civilized where rule of law prevails?

Of course, the truth is that we export our instability: more than that, our stability depends on constantly destabilizing others and collapsing entire societies into nightmares from which can be easily siphoned cheap labor and resources. These aren’t random conflicts: almost always, they’re our conflicts, our proxy wars, our coups and propaganda drives. “Our” prosperity (mostly the prosperity of the capitalist class, but we do still get the crumbs) is inextricable from their suffering, it depends on it. If other societies are able to stand up for themselves, they can’t be threatened into extortionate “free trade” deals that let western corpos make an insane markup on some tv assembled with rare earth minerals from Vassal Country A by wage slaves in Vassal Country B. That sounds random but it has to be stressed that almost every supply chain for everything in the entire “first world” is built on that relationship, all the profitability of western companies is built on that relationship, and they have before and will again kill untold millions if that relationship is ever threatened.

To tie it all together, my thesis about the apparent popularity of the Kim family (and I say apparent because I can’t know for sure from outside the DPRK either way, but haven’t seen any signs of internal struggles, which you know our western press would pounce on) is this:

-The US and it’s co-belligerents visit an untold amount of conflict and misery on the global south as a matter of course

-Those who stand up to them are remembered fondly by their society, especially if they succeed, especially if they succeed and survive to old age

-Those who stand up are demonized in the western press, especially if they succeed, especially if they succeed and survive to old age

-The people we in the US are conditioned to view as lesser are if anything much more level headed on average than we are, and if the armageddon we made over there happened to us over here the result would probably look less like a socialist republic and more like a loose confederation of death cults

-With this in mind, and knowing that they aren’t actually central to the government of the country, I cannot possibly begrudge Korean society and the Korean state their affinity for the Kim family as a national symbol

The WPK is not the only party in Korea, there’s also Chondoist Chongu Party and Korean Social Democratic Party, you can also be elected a representative without party association.

All elected positions are subject to recall and that right is regularly exercised, being a member of Kim family certainly does not give you immunity to that.

On the more philosophical questions, I can recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power, specifically Chapter 7 talks about Korea.

No?

No I’ve read extensively about how the DPRK works. I stand by what I said before I had the KGB man coming around to bash it with a heavy object.

And before you all start screeching lib I actually think China is leading the world currently and while a bit on the authoritarian side for my taste is clearly pioneering a superior system to the west in general.

Neither source seems to point towards fudged numbers, more towards an increase in suicides as a societal issue to be tackled. Nobody said there’s no suicide in China.

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Oh silly me, duh

🫡

There is, the bot is named Cowbee and they are paid in ruble.

Would definitely be useful.

Yep! The ACFTU is the world’s largest federation of trade unions.

Definitely, that’s one of the best things about the PRC.

Workers rights

• The real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973.
• Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
• US Life expectancy peaked in 2015, is on the decline, and is now lower than in China. 2
  • How healthcare works in China (refuting a fearmongering NYT video about health care in China).
  • Uninsured Chinese citizens pay an average of $5-7 to see a specialist (the majority of hospital visits ), and with insurance, its free. 95% of Chinese citizens have insurance
• Wages themselves are forced to rise in the private sector by the CPC (+16% every years, +400% since 1980) who force the capitalists to accept the presence of CPC chapters who represent the interest of the workers, increasing workers control even in the capitalist parts of the economy.
• Eliminated Urban Poverty. On track to eliminate all poverty within a decade.
• CGTN documentary - China’s war on poverty
• Trade union laws of the PRC.
• The west views China as one big sweatshop, but the actual working hours aren’t much more than anywhere else. The average for a migrant worker (most vulnerable to exploitation as they are traveling from the countryside) is 8.8 hours, little under an hour more than a typical working day. Labor strikes are rarely suppressed, and usually get the support of the PRC.
• The workplace safety standards of China are better than in the capitalist countries of the West like in Australia who have an higher rate of work related death despite having a GDP per capita 3-5 times higher.
• /u/cheezicle - My experience as a factory worker in a Chinese “sweatshop”
• 70% of Chinese millenials own their own home, and 91% as of 2021 plan to buy their own home within the next 5 years.
• In a typical example of proletarian police accountability, the CPC sentences a police officer to death for killing a pregnant woman in a restaurant in southern China.
• The US is losing to China: “Washington is actually far more corrupt than Beijing. If you want to get something done in Washington, you do what you do in Jakarta: just slip some money to the right people.”

Literally yes. Housing is a human right in the DPRK

I agree that the “principle aspect” as you say, or which class is holding power and ultimately controls both the economy and the political system, is most important. I’d argue though that the primary difference in these sectors is who is in control of the surplus, and whose benefit it goes to. In the PRC and even in Cuba, there are still private capitalists who effectively control the surplus generated within those companies, and use it as they see fit. They’re severely limited of course, but they still function differently from the socialist sector whose surplus is worker-controlled via 5 year plans.

The only “socialist industry” I can think of in western countries, outside of tiny examples like coops, are things like state-run natural resource and energy companies. The US military is just the enforcement arm of capital, planned and controlled by capital. Even state-run social services shouldn’t really be thought of as socialist, since they produce no surplus value, and are funded via other ways, and are overall capitalist-planned.