For those who are not clued into the intricacies of turkish (ethno-)nationalism, turanism is kind of like the odin-flavored racism in germany. They hate arabs so much they reject Islam (which is otherwise pretty core to turkish nationalism) because it’s an “arab religion”. It’s in a (not so coincidentally) similar vein to the odin-racists hating jews so much that they reject christianity due to it being a “semitic religion”. I could get into it more if needed but if you also browse the articles about the grey wolves (why are they called that 🤔) it should be fairly clear why that comm is a fascist op that is now being spread on lemmy
My weigh in would be that there’s a difference between news that applies and relates to Turkic People and fascist propaganda promoting Turkish Nationalism. Based on my scan of the comm, it seems mainly focused on the broad experiences of the diasporadic Turkic identity. Like many diasporadic identities, there are a broad range of Turkic experiences. There are some who, as you cite, believe in a form of Turkic supremacy and want to unify all Turkic people in a grand empire and control the world through a form of neo-colonialism similar to turanists. However there are also a great many Turkic people who simply wish to maintain their cultural signifiers (food, language, stories) as many of empires around them try to destroy them and homogenize them as colonial states have a long history of doing. My view of the comm, looking at it, is that it is primarily meant to be a space to create space for a cultural identity that is basically not represented at all on the Threadiverse, but one that frequently becomes a hot bed for mis- and disinformation simply because we lack perspective. From my reading of your comments, you are coming to this from a position of experience directly in an authoritarian Turkic-nationalist regime. I do not want to diminish your trauma in that time of your life, or dismiss it, and very much would want to see any reports of direct issues within the context of that comm and the FAF at large that are promoting Turkic-nationalism. However, I also know a great many Turkic people who are struggling to maintain their connection to their history as they’re homogenized into China, Mongolia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, and here in the United States through coercive means of assimilation.
I understand that you are coming to this topic earnestly, but I think we also have to conduct a little bit of good faith assumptions, too, that until we have evidence that this comm is meant to promote Turkic nationalism rather than to provide Turkic perspective on issues that the people posting there and maintaining that space are doing so in the hopes of bringing about a better future for all peoples of the earth regardless of the identities they carry.
My experience with this whole idea of a “turkic people” is some extreme right-wing turkish people trying to construct a national mythology akin to how the nazis try to construct their “aryan” mythology, complete with the revival of a religion that’s special to those people (Odin vs tengri). It’s the “mystical” part of the turkish ethnography pseudoscience. I am dismissive of the idea of “turkic nations” as quickly as I am of the idea of “aryan nations” and question anyone who holds these idea sacred.
and my experience with Turkic people is a diasporatic identity with a broad range of expressions, some right wing (as in the state sponsored ideal of Turkic identity promoted in Turkiye and Turkmenistan), some purely cultural (as is the case for my Friends from Pakistan, India, and western China). Again, I don’t want to dismiss your trauma. far right wing expression of turkic identity absolutely exists, and absolutely is a danger.
Turkic Nation States are absolutely a threat and a problem. if that comm is promoting ethnostates, that’s absolutely not okay, and we’ll want to take down those posts, as well as discuss with @cm0002@lemmy.dbzer0.com that this is not acceptable. ethnostates, no matter the creed, culture, or race, have no place promoting themselves in the FAF. it’s why we have our strict no zionism policy. however, from my perspective you are overly broadly painting all turkic people with the brush you got in a turkish supremacist ethnostate. when i went through that comm before i was specifically looking for examples of promoting ethnostates and i couldn’t find any (though i did just browse the first page). if you have any examples that cross a line please let us know.
I should have been clearer then, I’m not talking about all turkic people. I’m talking about the concept of a “turkic ethnicity”, which I have heard even azeri people not be comfortable with, because the discussions about it tend to be very Turkey-centric. What I heard from them, is something that is not generally accepted by the people of those nations.
Pakistani or indian people claiming a kinship with turkish people is a whooole different thing that I have only heard about from turkish/pakistan online drama and not irl. And I’m sad to say the love they show for turkish people is extremely one sided. I don’t know if they claim to be part of the pan-turkic idea, but they are very much not considered turkic by turkish people. As for “turkic people from china”, the turkic idea has been introduced in the post-soviet states in the 1990s as a way of introducing anticommunism. You won’t find much, if anything from before that (if you do please link me). This has been now part of an op in china to destabilize the region and escalate tensions resulting in the terror attacks from 2014 and the subsequent crackdown. I would take anything diaspora people say about the “repression back home” with a grain of salt, until you were able to speak to people actually living there. Especially with the whole “uyghur genocide” thing you will see that again it is Turkey and the ülkücü movement playing a vital role in amplifying it and giving it that “turkic” legitimization.
edit: as for promoting ethnostates, this is the newest post in the comm that’s now on piefed https://piefed.social/c/turkic@piefed.social/p/2398904/do-you-think-a-turan-union-could-be-established. Also I should have just checked the reddit sub apparently lol https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/:
Related communities include
- “Turkic mythology”
- “Turkish empire”
- “Turks” has a wolf in it’s logo
- and of course “sekulermilliyetciturk” aka “secular nationalist turks”
that post and subreddit are a Y I K E S
It seems like you’re making a ridiculous leap.
The community in question is news about the Turkic Peoples.
Your wikipedia is for Turanism, which is (according to that link), a movement built around nonsense scientific claims that there are connections between various Eurasian Ethnic groups, the Turkic peoples being one of those groups.
The other link is for the Grey Wolves which is a far-right nationalistic group that want to unite Turkic people in a single large state, basically their own empire.
The community, as far as I can tell, just posts mostly news about Turkic peoples.
Fairly clear why that comm is a fascist op
It is not remotely clear. Do you have literally any evidence of this type of behavior on that community? Or are you claiming that the existence of a community for Turkic peoples is, by its very existence, a fascist op? I’d prefer more of an actual example of how the community is what you claim. This is extremely half-baked and, I’ma be real, comes off as kind of racist? Not sure how else to parse the claim that a community for an ethnic group is secretly a fascistic op, just trust me bro…
Edit: Is this just because you had a post removed from there?
Edit 2: Over a week without any response. This after making a bold claim that a community for an ethnic group is somehow a fascist op that, after providing literally zero supporting evidence, is xenophobic at best. This is bigoted to fuck.
No this is because I grew up in Turkey as a christian and foreigner lol. I know about the ülkücüler because I had to, not that we were in particular danger mind you, but we occasionally had the windows of our church smashed. I can go more in depth some other time, maybe. It’s kinda hard to explain to westerners tbh because it’s a rather particular mindset tbh and this whole “turkic nations” thing is part of the racist background hum that permeates turkish society. Like how would you explain how some clearly racist european communities that seemingly just celebrate “european culture” are actually racist to, say, a chinese person. Take the sub name for instance, the name of some bygone nation that beget a bunch of others. The only relation these nations have nowadays have to Turkey (which is clearly important to that sub) is that their governments kind of descended from the same one. But they will claim some blood kinship, and think it’s very important because this is a deeply racist movement.
I think people forget that the ottoman empire fell only about 100 years ago, that it even controlled a huge part of europe in the 19th century. A lot of the race-“science” from europe made it’s way to Turkey and this “turkic brethren” shit is an outgrowth of that. Turkey had it’s own genocides in the 20th century that it still denies, these brainworms were never dealt with but are swept under the rug and allowed or sometimes even encouraged to fester. You have schoolchildren every day before school, stand at attention in military formations by class, sing the national anthem and when i went to school there, the entire school around me swore (this oath)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Oath_(Turkey)]. The shit I heard some Kemalists (these are the liberals) during the big arab spring refugee migrations about the (arab) refugees would have made been right at home at the AfD.
Not that I want to portray Turkey as a cartoonishly racist country, there is a lot of nuances, especially since it’s not a white country and a muslim country that is getting exploited by europe and the US, that come into play. The people are generally speaking very friendly and the country is beautiful. It’s not more racist than any other european nation, but it’s not that far behind them either. It was an imperial country that dominated and subjugated many nations and deserves to be named in the same breath as France, Britain, Germany etc. and the brainworms that come from that are similar.
Also the “ethnic group” in question is not even something all those in that group would agree on. A lot of people in Azerbaijan at least (I haven’t talked to people from other “turkic” nations) are put off by it, because Turkey and some turkish people see themself as the “big bro” that benevolently protect them and knows better. Turkey’s turkish is seen as the default and the other nations cultures and languages as cute, quaint or exotic aberrations.
There is also no clear idea what being “turkic” really means, some consider native americans turkic (yes, all the native americans) some consider finns/magyars turkic (this is not a /pol/ shitpost, these people really exist). They (claim to) want a turkic ethnonation across asia, anatolia, to xinjiang and northern sea to afghanistan mostly (depending on who they consider turkic tbh). This is just “aryan peoples” but applied to some other supposed race of people.
You answered a lot, and I’m thankful for that. But you didn’t answer the major one. You’re accusing this entire community of being a fascist op.
Do you have literally any evidence of this type of behavior on that community?
Because everything you said is, more or less, disagreement. That’s perfectly fine and acceptable, that’s the world. But you’re making a very large claim and have yet to provide any evidence that the community is what you’re claiming.
I should have just went to the reddit sub tbh. I don’t know if it gets clearer than this. This is just skimming the frontpage for a minute
Obsessing over DNA, haplogroups and what ancient civilizations some DNA can(?) be trace backed to
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wqm7ud/i_made_a_post_about_the_dna_of_chuvash_people/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wmlruu/slab_grave_admixture_in_modern_turkic_peoples/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wmoj8m/can_someone_explain_why_ufa_tatars_have_more_east/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wgve5k/why_is_there_so_much_genetic_misinformation_about/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wfmkx8/the_leaders_of_alash_orda_proudly_traced_their/
Kurtpasa1923 (Kurt=wolf, the symbol of the nationalist movement, pasa=the ottoman title and 1923 is the founding of the turkish republic all smashed together) asks about a “Turan Union” https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/1wkso90/do_you_think_a_turan_union_could_be_established/
I guess they sanitize it for the lemmy audience? Idk, but that plus the related communities should paint a very clear picture imo
Related communities include
- “Turkic mythology”
- “Turkish empire”
- “Turks” has a wolf in it’s logo
- and of course “sekulermilliyetciturk” aka “secular nationalist turks”
My larger point is that the whole concept of a “turkic ethnic group” that spans like a third of asia is born out of racist brainworms wiggling about in turkish society. This is like a community celebrating all the “germanic nations” as if sweden, denmark, germany, austria, northern italy, west poland etc. are all germans wearing different hats. The whole idea that those nations are tied “more closely” together through a shared “lingual root” or more closely related to eachother or whatever should be obviously racist to anyone who has ever heard about the shit the nazis were spewing about the “greater german reich”. And I’m not drawing this parallel out of nowhere.
I’ve decided not to go further with digging into the history of it all. The comm was just part of cm002 special op to starve lemmy.ml of interactions and since it moved to one of the “good” instances it will likely not be very active.
I stand by that this is a racist movement as someone who grew up in turkey, went to turkish school, had the history of Turkey from Mongolia, through the seljuks to the ottoman empire as part of their curriculum and is intimately familiar with the whole ideas and thoughts that tie into this “turkic identity” idea. But unpacking it all would be a big effortpost just in order to get the copy of an already dead comm deleted and I have enough stress and stuff to research as it is.
3 days later and nothing…
do you think your standard of evidence may be too high given the well studied subterfuge and plausible deniability fascists engage in? if enough of the user base is even sympathetic to these fascist currents then it’s cause for alarm
No. Anecdotal claims are not evidence. I also asked for any evidence of this community doing this specifically and literally none was ever provided. This is not due to my standard of evidence.
civility weaponization is a common tactic of theirs. “anecdotal” claims are good enough actually
Civility weaponization is a common tactic of theirs
Yet again, I am begging someone to link to a single thing instead of just claiming stuff.
“Anecdotal” claims are good enough actually
No, they’re not, actually. Not when you’re making an entire claim about an ethnic group and the community about them. It is, in fact, wildly xenophobic.
You are not the person making this claim and are not aiding in their claims. I have no interest in continuing this conversation with you.
No, they’re not, actually
actually yes they are. they are inremoved cases and they are in information wars like the one you’re fighting against the left right now. i’m not going to repeat ourselves
I’m one of those not clued in on Turkish nationalism. So it would be good to understand why you think the Turkic World comm is an example of turanism.
Confused as to why a straight up xenophobic attack on an ethnic group is not being taken down. They’ve provided zero evidence and haven’t backed up their claims in well over a week.
@mathemachristian@hexbear.net did you have anything to add to connect the dots here? I think you generally have good takes but I’m not understanding your claim here.
sorry I sat down to get something but it’s gonna be a huge thing to unravel and honestly i just don’t have the time. I’m just gonna link the “criticism of pan-turkism” section of wikipedia here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism#Criticism_of_pan-Turkism sorry for causing such a fuss and then going AWOL and then also not presenting a proper argument. But it would take a big effort just to get a dead comm deleted and I can’t justify that time investment.
thank you for sharing this. the whole article is insightful for how pan-turkism as an ideology originates in an ethnonationalist framework for resistance to the Russian Empire, which ultimately results in a neo-imperial ideal that stands in contrast to most other pan-identity movements that seek antinational liberation
nono it wasn’t resistance to the russian empire which would imply this came from the people, it was the ottoman empire seeking to legitimize it’s millet system and why the turkish people had more rights. They accepted the (then prevalent) european models that put language as the basis for an ethnicity at it’s center. There was huge academic exchange between the German and Austrian Orientalism institutes and the ottoman academia, since the Ottoman Empire was the main subject of their study. I’m just gonna link another wikipedia article for that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism#Origins_and_definitions .
The “turkic identity” that then got left over in east europe (like for example the disastrous state of albania, the bosnia/serbia split, tatar’s in crimea) etc are left-overs from that idea that the ottoman empire promulgated to legitimize their millet system.
edit: you can kind of see why I nixed the effortpost here lol. I would have to research the level of exchange between european ethnology and the ottomans, explain the millet system, how that came to be, how it resulted in genocide, and then the real hard part of how it got transformed in modern turkey into the ülkücü movement and how they build ties to other right-wing groups in the post-soviet state, which might require an examination of turkey’s relationship with communism and communist countries and just how anti-communist they are (hint: the kurds are seen as the communists, but there are some hints of communist efforts left from before kemalism sweeping victory such as farmers co-ops [if you can get your hand on marmarabirlik olives they’re the best and you’re supporting a co-op])
uh yeah have been real busy sry, I’ll come up with something soon hopefully. The tl;dr will be that anything about how all those varied cultures with nothing tying them together other than a shared language root 2,000 years ago should be united into a single ethnic group with it’s own nation is ethnonationalism. The whole concept of a “turkic family of nations” is parallel to the concept of an “aryan family of nations”. It’s a muddy definition born out of pseudoscience with the intent to spread racism.
deleted by creator
3 days later and nothing…
