I mean, the joke of the 1930s was that National Socialism absolutely was a centrist position between Monarchism and Communism. They struck a chord with central Europeans by advocating a broad ethnic sovereignty that expanded the “in-group” of would-be aristocrats while still flattering the egos of chauvinists and religious bigots. Fascism takes the founding myths of the aristocracy and extends it to a subset of the proletariat as a means of mobilizing them as a large populist unit.
The end result is a militant faction far larger and more industrial than the royalist elites, but one that still has scapegoats and class enemies among the various minorities and small neighbors on the periphery. It really is a philosophy that lives at the “center” of the historical political discourse.
You just have to come at it recognizing politics (particularly in Europe) as even more narrow and reactionary than what Fascists advocated for publicly. You also have to recognize Fascism as fundamentally unstable and quick to collapse, either into a more egalitarian socialism or a more hierarchical aristocracy, once it exhausts itself of minorities and neighbors to plunder.
What people often refer to as “left” and “right” are really “southwest” and “northeast” (respectively) on the typical political compasses that you see online. Fascism grants no civil liberties (far north, meaning authoritarian) and it has a mixed economy (neither west nor east).
Eh. It’s introducing the idea of political spectrum rather than binary (R/D) or linear (Left/Center/Right) politics.
But it’s hard to visualize outside of a 2D plane. And it’s even harder for people to conceptualize ideology that isn’t their own. So… an imperfect model of a complex system.
If you want an example of the burnout side of things look up the end of Francoist Spain and how it transitioned into modern Spain. It’s a whole mess but kinda interesting for how fascism just kinda runs out of steam and burns out after awhile, though it should be noted that Spain basically moderated at least partly because Francoist fascism was relatively utilitarian so when the project collapsed there was enough salvageable structure to just kinda moderate.
Either read Marx and apply your analysis from there, or read The Doctrine of Fascism and use that as your definition of fascism. All of UnderpantsWeevils claims about fascism have no basis except just going off vibes
Fascism is when Yiff Bezoos launches space dildos to pierce the heavens, using your tax money, while telling you your mexican neighbor is why you are broke.
how so? this is literally how the capitalist class appeals to the white working class (white here being someone with privilege and proximity to power) so that there can be an in group of class traitors who will sustain the status quo of capitalism as the inherent failures of system expose themselves.
Capitalism doesn’t require class traitors to continue functioning, you’re just making moral and vibes-based claims about fascism and capitalism with no further explanation nor analysis.
that’s not what i was claiming, and i don’t recall saying anything about moralism (not particularly since i think moralism is a waste of everyone’s time and energy). what i was trying to say is that when capitalism is in decline, movements arise to figure out what to do next. a century ago the main movers in that space were anarchist trade unionists, communist parties, and democratic socialists seeking to implement a new economic system. fascism arises as a counter to these things by co-opting the messaging of people looking to make a better world but with the aim of maintaining the current one. their propaganda works by promising to extend the benefits of aristocracy to more white (still using the same version of the word as before) people in return for those white people degrading the living quality of their minority neighbors.
Books i recommend that brought me to this understanding of how fascist propaganda works so we can counter it:
Settlers - J Sekai
Inventing Reality - Michael Piaenti
Ur-Fascism - Umberto Eco
Fascism is Capitalism in Decay - Vladimir Lenin
Song for a Hard Hit People: Lessons in Anti-racism From a Coal Miner’s Daughter - Beth Howard
I mean, the joke of the 1930s was that National Socialism absolutely was a centrist position between Monarchism and Communism. They struck a chord with central Europeans by advocating a broad ethnic sovereignty that expanded the “in-group” of would-be aristocrats while still flattering the egos of chauvinists and religious bigots. Fascism takes the founding myths of the aristocracy and extends it to a subset of the proletariat as a means of mobilizing them as a large populist unit.
The end result is a militant faction far larger and more industrial than the royalist elites, but one that still has scapegoats and class enemies among the various minorities and small neighbors on the periphery. It really is a philosophy that lives at the “center” of the historical political discourse.
You just have to come at it recognizing politics (particularly in Europe) as even more narrow and reactionary than what Fascists advocated for publicly. You also have to recognize Fascism as fundamentally unstable and quick to collapse, either into a more egalitarian socialism or a more hierarchical aristocracy, once it exhausts itself of minorities and neighbors to plunder.
What people often refer to as “left” and “right” are really “southwest” and “northeast” (respectively) on the typical political compasses that you see online. Fascism grants no civil liberties (far north, meaning authoritarian) and it has a mixed economy (neither west nor east).
The political compass is completely asinine
Eh. It’s introducing the idea of political spectrum rather than binary (R/D) or linear (Left/Center/Right) politics.
But it’s hard to visualize outside of a 2D plane. And it’s even harder for people to conceptualize ideology that isn’t their own. So… an imperfect model of a complex system.
Do you have some good texts to point towards for more reading? Might want to give them to the other commenter as well
If you want an example of the burnout side of things look up the end of Francoist Spain and how it transitioned into modern Spain. It’s a whole mess but kinda interesting for how fascism just kinda runs out of steam and burns out after awhile, though it should be noted that Spain basically moderated at least partly because Francoist fascism was relatively utilitarian so when the project collapsed there was enough salvageable structure to just kinda moderate.
Either read Marx and apply your analysis from there, or read The Doctrine of Fascism and use that as your definition of fascism. All of UnderpantsWeevils claims about fascism have no basis except just going off vibes
This is the worst interpretation of what fascism is I’ve ever read
What a cogent rebuttal, thank you for your useful insights, really great contribution to the discussion you’ve brought here.
Fascism is when Yiff Bezoos launches space dildos to pierce the heavens, using your tax money, while telling you your mexican neighbor is why you are broke.
how so? this is literally how the capitalist class appeals to the white working class (white here being someone with privilege and proximity to power) so that there can be an in group of class traitors who will sustain the status quo of capitalism as the inherent failures of system expose themselves.
Capitalism doesn’t require class traitors to continue functioning, you’re just making moral and vibes-based claims about fascism and capitalism with no further explanation nor analysis.
that’s not what i was claiming, and i don’t recall saying anything about moralism (not particularly since i think moralism is a waste of everyone’s time and energy). what i was trying to say is that when capitalism is in decline, movements arise to figure out what to do next. a century ago the main movers in that space were anarchist trade unionists, communist parties, and democratic socialists seeking to implement a new economic system. fascism arises as a counter to these things by co-opting the messaging of people looking to make a better world but with the aim of maintaining the current one. their propaganda works by promising to extend the benefits of aristocracy to more white (still using the same version of the word as before) people in return for those white people degrading the living quality of their minority neighbors.
Books i recommend that brought me to this understanding of how fascist propaganda works so we can counter it: