The title’s a bit disingenuous, I know: this didn’t come out of nowhere. White supremacism is as American as Manifest Destiny and has been heavily intertwined with Nazism from its inception. That overlap with the Republican party, and their gradual slip into the extreme far-right, is evident.
But Seig Heils? Even the most dense among them must know that blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, even among MAGATs (as is evident right now if you peek at their echo chamber on Reddit). Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism. How do they expect to keep cohesion in the military when you imply to the soldiers that they are Nazis now, seig heils and all.
Why Nazis?
Any theories as to where this is coming from? Follow the ketamine-fueled leader? A directive for operative Krasnov, from Putin himself, to implode the country? True Nazi beliefs among the Heritage Foundation, Proud Boys, etc? I just don’t understand how they thought this would fly. I don’t understand anything anymore lol.
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What you’re seeing is the end of Truth.
Especially in the face of AI generated photos, we’re dealing with a future where the youth can easily be misled about what actually happened in the past, or even in the current moment. There is very much an upswing of young people questioning established narratives of the past, often under the guise of “well you weren’t there, how do you know for sure?”
Reality is perception, and they are busy managing reality to deny any perception of Nazi behavior.
It’s why Musk especially lies so fluidly and easily in the face of hard evidence.
It’s all perception management, and as long as they keep talking and keep repeating the same lies, a significant number of people will believe them.
Musk still claims it wasn’t a Nazi salute, and a significant number of people believe him. It’s kind of like Trump’s statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any support. It’s all attack, never back down, never admit fault.
EDIT: It’s also Bannon’s “flood the zone with shit” strategy at work, too. We’ve been in an Attention Economy for a long time now (at least since 2007 when the iPhone put a screen in everyone’s pocket), and they know people’s attention is limited, so they work to force themselves into people’s limited time and attention spans. If your message is the only one they have time to hear, they’ll probably be more likely to consider yours true. This, for example, is why Musk forced himself into everyone’s Twitter feeds, he’s force feeding himself the limited attention of millions.
So how do we combat a DDOS on truth.
Clearly the previous orders of “truth” were not perfect either, and it’s discontent at the elite and coverups which Musk and Trump and other neofacist populists have manipulated to fuel their attacks on the establishment’s regime of truth. Ironically they are replacing something bad with something far worse.
How can leftists take the discontent with the current elite’s regime of truth and use it for the better ie. recruitment?
Regime of Truth Definition
Regimes of truth is a term coined by philosopher Michel Foucault, referring to a discourse that holds certain things to be “truths”. Foucault sought to explore how knowledge and truth were produced by power structures of society.[
The fact that the salute is so offensive, they did it so blatantly, and their denial was so disingenuous is the point. It’s a demonstration of power. They can do a Nazi salute and their opponents can’t punish them. They can deny that they did a Nazi salute and their opponents can’t control the narrative. If they did something more subtle, then people might think that they weren’t facing any consequences because their opponents were giving them the benefit of the doubt. With the Nazi salute there is no doubt. The only explanation for why they aren’t facing any consequences is that their opponents are powerless.
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I wish I could find it now, but there was a quote attributed to someone suffering under an oppressive regime which would blatantly lie, and yet it remained accepted: “The lie is the insult.”
I kind of feel like anybody who can get insulted by the likes of a lying nazi cunt deserves to be insulted. It isn’t insulting if you don’t get insulted. Call them stupid lying bitches and ask them how come tell truth make pee pee smol.
There are many other problems that are harder to solve, but that one’s trivial to solve, and it occupies a weirdly obsessively large portion of what nazis are chasing, so it can waste a surprising amount of their focus.
On one hand, yes, these people are pathetic and have little idea what the symbols they’re playing with truly mean beyond white supremacy. And yes, it is useful (and fun) to mock farcists.
On the other hand, some of these people are (literally) astronomically rich, in bed with leaders of one of the most powerful military forces ever to exist, and the others are those supported by these rich haute-booj oligarchs (just like the original Blackshirts and Brownsharts were supported by landowners and maginates). A Nazi salute, understood with respect to history and the powerplay of today, is personal to many people. If it’s a teenage edgelord fucking around to get a reaction, sure, dismiss them or let them ‘find out’, but Musk and Bannon are people with huge influence over politicians and mass media. Elon Musk, for example, literally owns a pervasive media platform. They can start sizable rallies gathering both the batshit unhinged and the ideologically driven, armed and hungry.
So if you’re someone who the Nazis would have sent to the extermination camps (and there are many, many groups that were, basically most of humanity), then that salute is someone with state power declaring they want you dead. I wouldn’t call it insulting as much as a credible death threat.
Happy cake day!
My theory is that they try to push the line on what is acceptable. For example, if you want something say you want 11 but what is acceptable is between 1 and 10. Then an 11 is not possible. But if you normalize 15 and keep pushing that, then 11 doesn’t seem so unreasonable after a while.
I see this being done constantly. Say that your plan is to do something extreme (take Canada), everyone panics and then get what you actually wanted. If nobody reacts, do the extreme thing.
This is it, and we (in the west) have gone so far to the right that the richest man of the world, with a powerful position (formally) near government can do the Hitler salute and the established media just shrugs.
Doing the Hitler salute used to make you a pariah. Now, it’s just a thing the extreme right does to ‘provoke’ (that word I saw used to describe Bannon’s salute in a German newspaper title). In a couple of years, it is normal that the right does this, and the established media doesn’t bat an eye anymore.
It’s clear that you still can’t trust established media to be a force against nazism. They’ll start analysing the nazi takeover as nazi only when it’s much too late, out of fear of not being ‘neutral’.
They want people to feel like rebels with a cause.
This is a good symbol to make a lot of people your enemies. Your ingroup can now rally against “the establishment”.
It couldn’t work before, because it made too many enemies for your small ingroup, but we’ve reached a tipping point where it is feasible to keep a thing going for a while.
They feel safe, that’s why they salute now.
chatgpt generated
Your confusion is warranted, but the shift toward overt Nazi symbolism among certain far-right elements in the U.S. is not as irrational as it might seem at first glance. It’s a combination of factors: ideological radicalization, the Overton window shifting, strategic provocation, and a loss of the pretense that once kept extremists in check.
- The Ideological Throughline
As you pointed out, American white supremacy and fascism have always been intertwined. The U.S. had its own Nazi sympathizers in the 1930s (the German American Bund, America First Committee, Charles Lindbergh’s isolationist faction), and after WWII, many of those ideologies just went underground rather than disappearing. The Republican Party’s rightward shift over the past few decades—accelerated by Trumpism—has created an environment where dog whistles have become bullhorns.
- The Radicalization Feedback Loop
Online radicalization has turned the “ironic Nazi” into the genuine article. Far-right spaces like 4chan, Telegram, and Gab have served as breeding grounds where Nazi imagery was initially used as an edgy provocation but ultimately shaped actual ideological beliefs. This was already happening in the early 2010s, but the rise of Trump and subsequent crackdown on these spaces caused a shift: instead of hiding behind irony, they started openly embracing the imagery.
- The “Accelerationist” Angle
Many of these groups are deeply influenced by accelerationism—the belief that by making things as extreme and chaotic as possible, they can hasten the collapse of the current system and usher in their fascist ideal. Openly flaunting Nazi symbols is a way to force polarization. Either people reject them, pushing society into a harder crackdown (which they think will fuel more radicalization), or their symbols become normalized. Either way, they win.
- Elites Willing to Use It
Groups like the Heritage Foundation aren’t necessarily full of true believers, but they recognize that the white nationalist bloc is a useful tool. They might not openly say “Yes, let’s be Nazis,” but they won’t condemn it either because they see the political utility in stirring up cultural and racial grievance. The Proud Boys, on the other hand, have increasingly absorbed genuine fascists who have no problem crossing that line.
- Trump’s Influence (and Possible Foreign Interference)
Trump has emboldened extremists to the point where they don’t feel the need to hide. His rhetoric gives them cover, even when he doesn’t directly endorse them. At the same time, foreign influence—whether from Russia, China, or other actors—could certainly be amplifying these elements. Destabilizing the U.S. by fostering internal division is classic asymmetric warfare.
Why Did They Think This Would Work?
They didn’t expect it to be embraced universally. They’re banking on two things: (1) the media and political establishment being too weak to properly respond, and (2) enough people either looking the other way or outright accepting it that they can normalize it.
What they didn’t anticipate was just how much backlash it would generate, even among right-wing circles. That suggests they either miscalculated public sentiment or, more likely, that the more extreme factions are losing control of their messaging discipline. Either way, it’s dangerous.
This isn’t a sudden emergence—it’s an inevitable consequence of where things were headed. The only question is whether this backlash is enough to force them back underground, or if it’s just another step toward further radicalization.
can you… not?
This is one of the best chatgpt analysis I have seen but I have not used it in awhile. I have just been using microsofts and googles figuring they all keep at about the same level. Granted I never really ask it to do some sort of political thing since it has no practical value so that might just be why I don’t generally see something like it.
Why would you post this trash? If people want to read chatgpt’s takes, they can access it themselves.
People become less hospitable in economic downturns, remember the original Nazis exploited that in the Versailles hit Weimar.
It’s always been there. Just now that people in power are the Nazis ppl can come out
Nazis are a symbol of power and authority for the far right the same way every international dictator has used hilters style of government to rule and oppress. They aspire to build a country similar to the one of the Nazis. Elements of this include: “christian” values, centralisation of power, uniting of the country, removal of “impures” (trans people).
Eugenics and the idea of a ‘chosen’ race is also powerful - you might be genetically destined for greatness, and the fact you have not achieved it is due to systematic oppression by a hidden conspiracy. People love that shit.
I think OP is asking why narratives around that theme keep coming back to the Nazi narrative, specifically. Why not another example of populist authoritarianism, unburdened by the systematic murder of millions of civilians? Why not invent a new narrative rooted in their own national history?
I think the answer to that is: creativity is hard. Once people have a successful first draft, they tend just to edit that draft rather than pitch it and come up with something completely new. People recognize any borrowed elements and return to the archetype. If you’ve every tried to write anything by committee or group project, you’ve probably seen people choose to edit a horrible first draft, retaining the same basic structure (however flawed) rather than start over. Committees where someone finds an existing, related text online, which then becomes an anchor for whatever the committee had planned to draft.
In short, Nazis serve as ‘best practices’ example for any new ethnic nationalist group by the simple fact of their existence.
It’s funny, the posters over at r/conservative truly believe they aren’t nazis and say thing like why is the left so violent, you do anything and they call you a nazi etc etc.
Crazy they can’t see the wood for the trees. Maybe they should have a bit of introspection, like maybe look in to why everyone calls the leaders and followers nazis…
Ironic coming from the “sheeple” crowd.
Plenty of answers here but I don’t think anyone has answered this part:
Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism.
So here’s my take …
Musk did the sig heil as a fuck you to everyone that doesn’t like him. That’s it.
They just won the election by basically lying, ignoring, and playing for time. They can literally do whatever the fuck they like for the next n years with impunity.
Imagine if Harris had won and in her victory speech said something like “Don’t worry Don, I’ll make sure they give you diapers in jail.” It would’ve been a low blow but we would’ve loved her for it because it’s poking fun at the conservatives for no other reason than to stir them up.
I think there’s another, longer conversation to be had about why racism (and by extension nazism) resonates with voters in 2025, but I’m too weary for that I think.
But Seig Heils? Even the most dense among them must know that blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, even among MAGATs
“hE wAs jUSt joKING 😡😡😡” -every magat ever
It wasn’t sudden, this shit’s been muddying the waters for a decade and the precursors were seeping in for another decade or more before that.
we’re in the end stages of a campaign by assholes to overthrow our deomocracy.
It’s been getting waged for decades. they’ve been doing this shit for years, behind closed doors and they now feel comfortable with being nazis in public.
It’s so weird to me that it’s ketamine, incidentally. Like, maybe I’d understand it more if Musk was heavy into cocaine, but the biggest ket users I know basically just drop off the grid, wear the same cardigan for a year straight and boof crystals in their van with their polycule… Not this Nazi shit. It’s so weird.
