In a two-party, first-past-the-post system you kinda have an ethical obligation to vote for the lesser evil. It’s just a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
It fucking blows, but if your choices are the shitty status quo or full blown fascism, you really should pick the status quo.
Obviously doesn’t fix the problem with the Democrat party sliding further and further right since they can continue to claim “lesser evil”… and it also doesn’t fix the DNC superdelegate shenanigans that got us Hillary instead of Bernie… but I’d rather the country be able to still exist to fight another day.
In a two-party, first-past-the-post system you kinda have an ethical obligation to vote for the lesser evil. It’s just a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
Not really, but you’re free to believe that.
The ethical stance to take against 2 evil candidates is to support neither. Supporting the lesser evil makes useful idiots think that they’re winning and therefore stop fighting back.
Any ire you direct towards the people who don’t support evil candidates would be better spent directed towards those who do support evil candidates. i.e. don’t waste your breath arguing with non-voters, dedicate that energy towards the people who keep supporting candidates that don’t represent their interests.
It’s just a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
Actually, the people who refuse to support evil candidates are a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
Since we’re talking facts, let me lay another one on you. All you people do when you get mad at me for not voting is reinforce my decision to keep doing it. I’m not going to cave to look good in front of ya’ll, I genuinely don’t care what most of you think.
Either run a candidate that supports the working class, or I’m not voting for them.
You’re conflating voting for someone with supporting them. I didn’t support Hillary or Kamala but I still voted for them because the alternative was so much worse. That’s just the shitty reality of our two-party, fptp voting system.
In this system, one of those two parties will win regardless of how you specifically cast or don’t cast your vote. The time to fight for the ideal candidate is the four years leading up to the election. When you get to the ballot box, you really just have to swallow what’s perfect and pick what’s not terrible (at least in that moment).
Supporting the lesser evil makes useful idiots think that they’re winning and therefore stop fighting back.
But the alternative is effectively accelerationism, throwing millions of people under the bus, and hoping that things shake out in your favor after a violent revolution. Which… I don’t agree with as a plan, but we’re kind of already on this path so 🤷♂️.
Also, I’m not mad at you. And I think I largely agree with you, with anger at the system and candidate selection. I just don’t agree with you about casting your vote being the time and place to stage a protest (in a system like ours at least).
The ethical stance to take against 2 evil candidates is to support neither.
This may be the ethical thing to do. However, ethical is not always the best.
By not voting the lesser evil, you allowed the more evil to win the elections.
The percentage of non-voting people has no direct impact to the end result. In a perfect democratic world, that non-voting majority would sign the elected government to be more careful with their decisions, as people are loosing trust. In the current state of “democracy”, a fascist just took over and started dismantling the country.
Yes, it’s a loss no matter what. But when you get to decide whether to eat a shit sandwich or a paper sandwich, you either choose to eat the paper sandwich or you’re forced to eat the shit sandwich. Guess you opted for the shit sandwich… enjoy!
Yeah, because Harris wouldn’t have caused the shit fest that’s intensifying right about now. Probably wouldn’t have been a great president either, but a meh president is better than whatever the trump+musk combo is. Two months in and it’s already affecting people halfway around the world and somehow you’re glad. That doesn’t say anything good about you, not sure why you’re advertising it.
I know, it’'s called an analogy. :) Might be a bad one, sure, but I wasn’t talking literally. Didn’t think I’d have to explain that. But then again, 77 million people voted for trump, so… not completely surprised either.
You have to vote according to how the electoral system actually works, not how you wish it worked. Unless you - yes, you - are personally prepared to fund and organise a revolution to change that system then you vote against the actual fascist.
I can tell you’re going to go through whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to convince yourself that voting for the lesser evil is somehow a win.
Sorry you’ve been conditioned to dedicate so much energy working against your own interests. If more of you diverted that energy to the people supporting our oppressors, we wouldn’t need to be having this discussion.
I can tell you’re going to go through whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to convince yourself that voting for the lesser evil is somehow a win.
My friend, the only one performing mental gymnastics right now is you trying to convince yourself that what you have achieved by refusing to vote against a fascist is a win.
Sorry you’ve been conditioned to dedicate so much energy working against your own interests. If more of you diverted that energy to the people supporting our oppressors, we wouldn’t need to be having this discussion.
Assuming you’re an American, by refusing to vote against fascism I’m pretty sure you won’t be having any free discussions in a year or so lest you be carted off by the local stasi.
achieved by refusing to vote against a fascist is a win.
How? Either way I lose.
If I voted for harris and harris won, I still lost. If I voted for harris and trump won, I still lost. if I voted for trump and trump won, I still lost.
You’re naive enough to believe that harris winning is the same as you winning, and that’s just proving my point. You’ve been conditioned to think that a slow loss is the same as a win.
Assuming you’re an American, by refusing to vote against fascism I’m pretty sure you won’t be having any free discussions in a year or so lest you be carted off by the local stasi.
Yeah, you’re too far gone to be taken seriously. Your reply is just an automated response you feel compelled to make to fit in with other people who are also too far gone.
Because when you vote against a fascist you’re considering wider society, not just your self.
If I voted for harris and harris won, I still lost. If I voted for harris and trump won, I still lost. if I voted for trump and trump won, I still lost.
The correct statement is 'if Harris gets in, I lost. If Trump gets in everyone loses. Its about more than just you.
You’re naive enough to believe that harris winning is the same as you winning, and that’s just proving my point. You’ve been conditioned to think that a slow loss is the same as a win
I’m not American. What I am though is able to see that fascism is worse than conservatism. The fact that conservatism is still bad is irrelevant when the only other choice is an actual fascist because the fascist will probably remove your power to vote in the future.
Gonna block you now. Good luck in life.
Yeah, some truths are too uncomfortable to be lived with aren’t they?
I find it very interesting how conceptualizing binary states vs continuous ranges play into justifying not voting for the lesser evil.
By definition, a request to acknowledge the lesser evil means that the audience is able to understand “evil” on a continuous range.
Yet all of the justifications I see against voting for the lesser evil center on viewing the world through an absolute, binary lens. “I lose either way.” “Genocide is genocide, nevermind that there’s more of it, protestors are being silenced, the ones doing the genocide call Trump’s administration a ‘dream team’, we now have a genocide against trans citizens as well”, etc.
Do you think you’d lose less had Kamala won? Why or why not?
My life is going to go on much the same no matter who is in office.
The rest of you, though, should be asking yourselves why the greater evil won and consider running a good candidate in the future.
The fact you’re trying to justify “losing less” proves my point further about your conditioning. Try to direct some of that energy towards the people who have conditioned you. Maybe then the greater evil won’t win next time because you people did something different.
My life is going to go on much the same no matter who is in office.
Ah, now you’re saying the quiet part out loud - you cast your vote from an ivory tower, and that privilege allows you to justify not voting by chasing an esoteric ideal while facing no real consequences.
Must be nice! If you have nothing at stake, there’s very little reason to listen to your suggestions about voting. You have no skin in the game - you’re the entitled rich kid protestor who, at the end of the day, goes back to a life they don’t have to worry about.
Cool, and I’ll ask that you not only let me know when doing absolutely nothing starts winning elections, but also that you let me know when time when it ever has.
Better yet- how about you tell me of an instance in history when not doing shit has ever won anything at all.
Your refusal to vote helped put us right where Trump wanted. Own that shit.
Clinton was a much better candidate than trump. Like, miles ahead. They tried to pin benghazi on her for months and it was proven time and again she wasn’t responsible for it. The other argument was “but her emails”. She was experienced. She was intelligent. She didn’t sexually assault anyone. She didn’t go bankrupt every few years. She even won the popular vote. But she was a she, so that’s apparently a deal breaker in swing states.
I’m delivering blame to where it lies. You can tell yourself all you need to believe you had no part in creating the dumpster fire we’re currently burning in, but do me a favor and just stick with telling that to yourself, okay? Because anyone with a brain that has even slightly been paying attention is tired of watching you people ignorantly pointing your fingers at everyone but your smug and entitled selves.
I also wasn’t a huge fan of Kamala but at least she wasn’t threatening the sovereignty of numerous nations. She had terrible views on Gaza but she also wasn’t talking about bulldozing Gaza to set up her own luxury resort on top of the corpses.
But no thank you for being so moral as to not vote for her. I’ll think of you when Trump sends his military into Canada and my city
You people are the ones fighting the non-voters instead of those nominating candidates the people don’t want to vote for.
Instead of getting mad at me, you people should be getting mad at those who keep nominating candidates I refuse to vote for.
You’re wasting your breath trying to convince me to change. I’ve said before all you guys do when you get angry at me for non-voting is reinforce my decision to do so. This means that all of you arguing against me are actually arguing in favor of more fascism, because that’s what we keep getting.
A protest (non) vote is useless if you’re not going to get to vote again. If you want to fight for something, maybe fight to get rid of FPTP and your two party system that has lead to this scenario.
Instead of getting mad at me, you people should be getting mad at those who keep nominating candidates I refuse to vote for.
I am mad at them. I don’t even like the Democratic Party, they’re barely any better than the Canadian Conservative Party (at least before PP who has pushed the party much further in Trump’s direction).
But again, at least they weren’t planning an invasion of my country, or Panama, or Greenland/Denmark. Or putting people (including Canadians!) in camps. Or selling out Ukraine to buddy up with Russia. Or tearing down any “check and balance” your government had, in record time
I may not be able to convince you but you’re definitely affirming my view
Fucking wrong. Every asshole who abstained from voting, voted for Trump. He received 60%. At the very least, that 30% didnt vote for someone else.
If you abstained from voting in a blue state you voted for trump? Logic does not compute.
If you people want me to vote for your candidate, make sure they aren’t just the “lesser evil.”
Try doing something different next time if you want different results. Don’t repeat the same mistakes.
Blame everyone who voted for hillary clinton in the 2016 primary for why we now have 2 trump presidencies. They’re out of touch.
I get the frustration but this is a bad take.
In a two-party, first-past-the-post system you kinda have an ethical obligation to vote for the lesser evil. It’s just a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
It fucking blows, but if your choices are the shitty status quo or full blown fascism, you really should pick the status quo.
Obviously doesn’t fix the problem with the Democrat party sliding further and further right since they can continue to claim “lesser evil”… and it also doesn’t fix the DNC superdelegate shenanigans that got us Hillary instead of Bernie… but I’d rather the country be able to still exist to fight another day.
Not really, but you’re free to believe that.
The ethical stance to take against 2 evil candidates is to support neither. Supporting the lesser evil makes useful idiots think that they’re winning and therefore stop fighting back.
Any ire you direct towards the people who don’t support evil candidates would be better spent directed towards those who do support evil candidates. i.e. don’t waste your breath arguing with non-voters, dedicate that energy towards the people who keep supporting candidates that don’t represent their interests.
Actually, the people who refuse to support evil candidates are a statistical fact you can’t ignore.
Since we’re talking facts, let me lay another one on you. All you people do when you get mad at me for not voting is reinforce my decision to keep doing it. I’m not going to cave to look good in front of ya’ll, I genuinely don’t care what most of you think.
Either run a candidate that supports the working class, or I’m not voting for them.
You’re conflating voting for someone with supporting them. I didn’t support Hillary or Kamala but I still voted for them because the alternative was so much worse. That’s just the shitty reality of our two-party, fptp voting system.
In this system, one of those two parties will win regardless of how you specifically cast or don’t cast your vote. The time to fight for the ideal candidate is the four years leading up to the election. When you get to the ballot box, you really just have to swallow what’s perfect and pick what’s not terrible (at least in that moment).
But the alternative is effectively accelerationism, throwing millions of people under the bus, and hoping that things shake out in your favor after a violent revolution. Which… I don’t agree with as a plan, but we’re kind of already on this path so 🤷♂️.
Also, I’m not mad at you. And I think I largely agree with you, with anger at the system and candidate selection. I just don’t agree with you about casting your vote being the time and place to stage a protest (in a system like ours at least).
This may be the ethical thing to do. However, ethical is not always the best.
By not voting the lesser evil, you allowed the more evil to win the elections.
The percentage of non-voting people has no direct impact to the end result. In a perfect democratic world, that non-voting majority would sign the elected government to be more careful with their decisions, as people are loosing trust. In the current state of “democracy”, a fascist just took over and started dismantling the country.
I’ve mentioned before how the problem with the lesser evil is that useful idiots stop fighting.
Since neither side really cares about solving the problems that face us as a species, it’s a loss no matter what.
deleted by creator
Yes, it’s a loss no matter what. But when you get to decide whether to eat a shit sandwich or a paper sandwich, you either choose to eat the paper sandwich or you’re forced to eat the shit sandwich. Guess you opted for the shit sandwich… enjoy!
Hey, I’m glad you guys are upset.
If harris would’ve won, you wouldn’t be mad.
Yeah, because Harris wouldn’t have caused the shit fest that’s intensifying right about now. Probably wouldn’t have been a great president either, but a meh president is better than whatever the trump+musk combo is. Two months in and it’s already affecting people halfway around the world and somehow you’re glad. That doesn’t say anything good about you, not sure why you’re advertising it.
Government is not a sandwich you simpleton
I know, it’'s called an analogy. :) Might be a bad one, sure, but I wasn’t talking literally. Didn’t think I’d have to explain that. But then again, 77 million people voted for trump, so… not completely surprised either.
You have to vote according to how the electoral system actually works, not how you wish it worked. Unless you - yes, you - are personally prepared to fund and organise a revolution to change that system then you vote against the actual fascist.
I can tell you’re going to go through whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to convince yourself that voting for the lesser evil is somehow a win.
Sorry you’ve been conditioned to dedicate so much energy working against your own interests. If more of you diverted that energy to the people supporting our oppressors, we wouldn’t need to be having this discussion.
My friend, the only one performing mental gymnastics right now is you trying to convince yourself that what you have achieved by refusing to vote against a fascist is a win.
Assuming you’re an American, by refusing to vote against fascism I’m pretty sure you won’t be having any free discussions in a year or so lest you be carted off by the local stasi.
How? Either way I lose.
If I voted for harris and harris won, I still lost. If I voted for harris and trump won, I still lost. if I voted for trump and trump won, I still lost.
You’re naive enough to believe that harris winning is the same as you winning, and that’s just proving my point. You’ve been conditioned to think that a slow loss is the same as a win.
Yeah, you’re too far gone to be taken seriously. Your reply is just an automated response you feel compelled to make to fit in with other people who are also too far gone.
Gonna block you now. Good luck in life.
Because when you vote against a fascist you’re considering wider society, not just your self.
The correct statement is 'if Harris gets in, I lost. If Trump gets in everyone loses. Its about more than just you.
I’m not American. What I am though is able to see that fascism is worse than conservatism. The fact that conservatism is still bad is irrelevant when the only other choice is an actual fascist because the fascist will probably remove your power to vote in the future.
Yeah, some truths are too uncomfortable to be lived with aren’t they?
I find it very interesting how conceptualizing binary states vs continuous ranges play into justifying not voting for the lesser evil.
By definition, a request to acknowledge the lesser evil means that the audience is able to understand “evil” on a continuous range.
Yet all of the justifications I see against voting for the lesser evil center on viewing the world through an absolute, binary lens. “I lose either way.” “Genocide is genocide, nevermind that there’s more of it, protestors are being silenced, the ones doing the genocide call Trump’s administration a ‘dream team’, we now have a genocide against trans citizens as well”, etc.
Do you think you’d lose less had Kamala won? Why or why not?
My life is going to go on much the same no matter who is in office.
The rest of you, though, should be asking yourselves why the greater evil won and consider running a good candidate in the future.
The fact you’re trying to justify “losing less” proves my point further about your conditioning. Try to direct some of that energy towards the people who have conditioned you. Maybe then the greater evil won’t win next time because you people did something different.
Ah, now you’re saying the quiet part out loud - you cast your vote from an ivory tower, and that privilege allows you to justify not voting by chasing an esoteric ideal while facing no real consequences.
Must be nice! If you have nothing at stake, there’s very little reason to listen to your suggestions about voting. You have no skin in the game - you’re the entitled rich kid protestor who, at the end of the day, goes back to a life they don’t have to worry about.
Naaaah. I’m going to go ahead and blame the people who arrogantly chose to feed their entitlement and not vote.
Cool. Let me know when that starts winning you elections.
Cool, and I’ll ask that you not only let me know when doing absolutely nothing starts winning elections, but also that you let me know when time when it ever has.
Better yet- how about you tell me of an instance in history when not doing shit has ever won anything at all.
Your refusal to vote helped put us right where Trump wanted. Own that shit.
How many times does the “fall in line crowd” not have to fall in line before you people start doing something differently?
Lol. How about the people that voted for hillary clinton in the 2016 primary own trump getting the presidency at all?
How about you hold them accountable? Or let me guess, you’re diverting all that energy towards me instead.
Thanks for proving my point, again.
Clinton was a much better candidate than trump. Like, miles ahead. They tried to pin benghazi on her for months and it was proven time and again she wasn’t responsible for it. The other argument was “but her emails”. She was experienced. She was intelligent. She didn’t sexually assault anyone. She didn’t go bankrupt every few years. She even won the popular vote. But she was a she, so that’s apparently a deal breaker in swing states.
These kids don’t want to hear that because it flies in the face their designer manufactured outrage, but it’s a good point nonetheless.
🥱
Like I said, this song and dance is going to go on until I die and probably long after.
I’m delivering blame to where it lies. You can tell yourself all you need to believe you had no part in creating the dumpster fire we’re currently burning in, but do me a favor and just stick with telling that to yourself, okay? Because anyone with a brain that has even slightly been paying attention is tired of watching you people ignorantly pointing your fingers at everyone but your smug and entitled selves.
Vote against genocide. It’s that simple. There are no excuses, when genocide is on the table, you do something.
Yeah… now people have to argue if whoever you’re talking about really supports genocide, and to what extent.
Yeah fuck off. At least Kamala wouldn’t have been trying to cripple and invade my country
You would be happy with her continuing to invade and cripple other countries tho?
When the hell did I say that? Don’t put words in my mouth you stupid fucking American
Like I said, I don’t expect you people to do anything different.
This song and dance is going to go on until the day I die and likely long after.
Who is “you people”. I’m not American.
I also wasn’t a huge fan of Kamala but at least she wasn’t threatening the sovereignty of numerous nations. She had terrible views on Gaza but she also wasn’t talking about bulldozing Gaza to set up her own luxury resort on top of the corpses.
But no thank you for being so moral as to not vote for her. I’ll think of you when Trump sends his military into Canada and my city
You people are the ones fighting the non-voters instead of those nominating candidates the people don’t want to vote for.
Instead of getting mad at me, you people should be getting mad at those who keep nominating candidates I refuse to vote for.
You’re wasting your breath trying to convince me to change. I’ve said before all you guys do when you get angry at me for non-voting is reinforce my decision to do so. This means that all of you arguing against me are actually arguing in favor of more fascism, because that’s what we keep getting.
A protest (non) vote is useless if you’re not going to get to vote again. If you want to fight for something, maybe fight to get rid of FPTP and your two party system that has lead to this scenario.
I am mad at them. I don’t even like the Democratic Party, they’re barely any better than the Canadian Conservative Party (at least before PP who has pushed the party much further in Trump’s direction).
But again, at least they weren’t planning an invasion of my country, or Panama, or Greenland/Denmark. Or putting people (including Canadians!) in camps. Or selling out Ukraine to buddy up with Russia. Or tearing down any “check and balance” your government had, in record time
I may not be able to convince you but you’re definitely affirming my view
If it’s this easy to “invade” canada, then why would you have faith in the state at all?
average american
Oh man this imperial crybaby is canadian? lol.