- cross-posted to:
- fediverse@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- fediverse@lemmy.ml
In light of recent controversy and its handling, the twice-a-year FediForum unconference for April 1st and 2nd has been canceled by its organizer.
In light of recent controversy and its handling, the twice-a-year FediForum unconference for April 1st and 2nd has been canceled by its organizer.
Yes we are. The only reason these discussions come up in the first place is because of that.
You thinking that this has nothing to do with the far right doesn’t make it so. Normalising the idea that sex is black and white, and conversations about that only occur in a wide spread way because there is political reward in presenting things that way. 10 years ago you weren’t having these discussions. Today, you are, because the politics of transphobia has made it happen.
You are the one who claimed that I was diverting in to irrelevancy. I bring up the political context, because it’s not irrelevant.
This whole conversation, the thread you are talking in, exists, because a transphobe was using the same talking points you are arguing for, to normalise transphobia. You doing it, also normalises transphobia, whether that is your intent or not.
You want a sex binary to exist. It doesn’t, unless you smooth away the edges and ignore some of the data and the lived realities of people. Evolutionary biologists don’t share your perspective. Geneticists don’t share your perspective. This whole conversation exists for political reasons, designed to push exclusion. In a topic about a person using these exact talking points to push for exclusion, you have arrived, repeated the talking points, and then tried to argue that actually, it’s ok, because your perspective is correct, so long as we ignore some of the details.
Which is exactly what the next transphobe will do too.
Even if you don’t agree with me, and to you, this is all about the purity of ideas, your choice of getting involved in this discussion, in this context, isn’t removed from reality. It’s not detached. It’s actively empowering the exclusionary voices by talking over and fighting with the people pushing back against that exclusion. That’s a choice you made that has nothing to do with the truth of your idea
I strongly disagree (btw I am not downvoting you). Let me try and explain; I am going to go on a bit of a tangent, but it’s all relevant to our discussion.
I am from Ukraine. I have exposure to the local LGBT community and generally I try to stay informed on social and governmental attitudes to LGBT rights in Ukraine.
I interact with queer Ukrainians (not trans Ukrainians though) who don’t speak English and aren’t exposed to the arguments and polemics inherent to English-language debates on the topic at hand (they have their own interests and priorities that reflect local realities).
My argument is that the discussion around the nature of sex is irrelevant to promoting transphobia. The far right (English-language or otherwise) will find something else to latch on to. I would even go as far as saying that the polemics of transphobia, in say the US, are largely defined by the propaganda strategies used by local oligarchs to maintain their economic power and enable corruption. On a certain level, the only reason why the American far right is even involved in transphobia, is because they are exposed to transphobic propaganda polemics pushed by local criminal/oligarch groupings. This is not unique to the US.
I would also argue that many in the Ukrainian LGBT community are more likely to agree with my interpretation than what you are arguing for (keep in mind that discussions around the extent to which sex is binary is not something that Ukrainian homophobes/transphobes engage in). Economic issues, the role of corruption, russian imperialism are far more important for the local LGBT community in shaping their worldview.
Now while I have exposure to the Ukrainian LGBT community, I don’t have any trans friends, so I am less confident about making statements regarding the attitudes of the Ukrainian trans community.
That being said, how do you know that Ukrainian trans folks (e.g. people who don’t speak English) completely agree with your interpretation on the interplay of “sex discussions” and transphobia?
Forget Ukraine, what about say Pakistan or India or Uzbekistan?
You claim that I want “purity of ideas” and an easy and neat framework. I could argue the same for you!
You are welcome to disagree with me and say I am wrong in my understanding of the binary nature of sex. It is what is. I am just trying to show you that my worldview has a level of nuance and it’s not a mere matter of wanting “neat solutions” while ignoring the weaponization of this discussion by the English-speaking far right.
My instance doesn’t have downvotes, so it makes no difference to me. They’re disabled precisely because they get
Yes and no. I transitioned 8 years ago. Before the current wave of transphobia had settled on us for politcal gain. And transphobes were around then. The same arguments were around then. However, the only people who used those arguments and the only time those discussions came up, was when transphobes were talking about trans folk. What wasn’t happening then, was regular folk, unconnected to the trans and gender diverse community, weighing on on what their opinions on sex and gender were. Mostly, folk didn’t even distinguish between sex and gender.
What has changed since then, is the politics. And yeah, the politicians didn’t come up with these arguments out of thing air. They didn’t create the transphobia. But what they did was popularise and normalise it, and that is the reason that a Ukranian is arguing with an Australian, about the actions of a transphobic American.
The fact that you (and I) are having this conversation, or that you’re even aware of the topic enough to have strong opinions on it, is absolutely shaped by the transphobic political environment around the world.
That’s the point I was making! You’re talking about sex using absolutes. I’m saying there are no absolutes. Sex has multiple definitions, some are cultural, some are physical, some are genetic, some are medical, some are legal. And they all overlap, and they often contradict each other. There is no clear cut definition of sex that can apply a consistent standard. The cultural contexts you highlight are actively a part of the reason that is so!
To be honest, your reasons don’t matter. What matters is that you are parroting the arguments actively used by the transphobic folk, in a time when trans folk are facing ever growing abuse. The fact that you think you have good reasons for holding those opinions doesn’t change the fact that in this environment, choosing to share those opinions, especially in the context of arguing with folk actively pushing back against transphobia, isn’t harmless.