It’s solvable if you take surveillance capitalism out of the equation, just as Valve are doing. AR with Meta behind it will never be something that is socially acceptable since their whole business model is selling out the user and everyone around them. With a company like Valve which has a pretty good track record regarding privacy (a.k.a the only things transferred regarding usage are what games you play to make store recommendations fit your taste and bug reports if you approve them) i can see a wider adoption taking place.
I don’t think that’s true, your personal privacy as the owner of the device is one thing, everyone else’s right to not be continuously photographed is another. Having Valve operate it over meta doesn’t solve that. Also, what happens when Gabe does and the investment bank that buys it decides they want to sell everyone data to maximise profit?
These things can be done in a privacy respecting way for other parties too. The computational power needed to realize a person is in the field of view and to process this person saying “i consent” is in everyones pocket nowadays.
I think if you can plan for somehow allowing concent for these things then you can also plan for bypassing it. Also it would need to film you to work out if you don’t consent and then it’s already breached the consent.
There’s a difference between passively waiting for a voice command by a person identified in RAM and storing these things. And sure, there will always be people breaking the rules, but if you actually try to make the product secure, the vast amount of people will NOT be fucking around with that.
Take Metas PervGlasses for example: There’s a LED that shows it is recording. You can remove that light with a simple dremel, and no one at Meta even thought about implementing a simple check like making the LED flash a OTP code to be recognized by the camera at the start of recording. It makes a whole lot of difference who is developing these things, trust me.
I think the problem is that shit manufacturers exist, so how do you regulate that. At this point you can only assume all AR glasses are sending everything they record to their manufacturer for on selling to the ir favourite data broker, because that’s literally the market. There severely limited options for ethical devices and those that do exist could be bought next week and their policies change on a dime.
We regulate that with laws with teeth. I know, that is a foreign concept for most of the US, but even there with California and lately NY there are areas who have started to hold corporations accountable (even if it is on a small scale yet). The GDPR is already basically making Metas glasses illegal in their current form, and they are currently involved into a record amount of lawsuits.
There is still a lot of work to do, but the basics have been prepared.
Honestly I don’t need a camera or anything integrated but I’d love to have an integrated screen for my glasses. Would be nice when putting things together to just sync it with my phone and just have it there, also maps. Look I have to wear glasses all the time might as well add a tiny bit more utility.
But are they intigratable in pre existing glasses? My prescription is non negotiable due to how bad my eyesight is without and I can’t do contacts. Also having them sync with my phone and having them do little to no processing would be my preferred method, rather than having them contain all the computational shit themselves.
GPS with accelerometers should be able to work out where you’re standing and where you’re facing, so you could have navigation with a floating marker over the turn you need to take instead of just having a mini-map, too.
Kinda depends on the definition on that one, personally I would consider a IRL HUD to be a low level version of that since it would be intigraing those systems in a pretty intimate way.
We’ve mostly been looking in to how it can be utilized in a production environment with detailed machine stats at a glance, live setpoints without having to be near the control panel, aids for maintenance…that sort of things
The meta display glasses would be cool if not for the whole meta part. You don’t even need to be able to access the camera. It should just be used for tracking.
That’s not really AR then is it, AR requires the overlay on reality, I guess it could be like a game OSD but a lot of that detail is probably more annoying than anything. A live map might be good sometimes, but do I need my heart rate showing all the time in regular day to day life? is it helpful to have a shopping list taking up space in my vision all the time? How do I interact with it if it can’t see my hands, do I then have to talk to it constantly to manipulate it? Can other people manipulate my OSD while I’m using it by saying the right thing? Seems pretty gimmicky …
The problem isnt your privacy, it’s everyone else’s. If there are glasses with cameras then some arsehole is running around photographing people without their permission. You might argue that if you’re out in public then you can be photographed but that’s a shit attitude, if someone is walking around photographing people they should at least have to make it obvious so people can have a say at the time or at least know about it before it turns out they are now an AI deepfake pornstar.
Legal doesn’t mean right. There are a whole host of situations where you shouldn’t be filming and if someone is filming you want them to be obvious about it. Schools, playgrounds, change rooms etc.
schools and changing rooms are already somewhat because they aren’t considered public, playgrounds are insanely public and have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
As far as I can tell, VR is 100% fully realized. In the future, you will be able to do everything you can do in VR right now and nothing more than that, but it will be a better experience, smoother, higher res, faster frame rates.
I think that it if there were a really compelling use case, people would put up with the current technical limitations to go do it.
I think we’ll slowly see adoption rise as software support & comfort improve, but this is basically the VR landscape: sims, games, porn, and some creative stuff.
I think the only really ground breaking thing would be if res became affordable enough to replace a 70" TV at a reasonable price, that–plus how much 3D kicks ass in VR–would definitely move some units.
I get nauseated very fast with a vr headset and I don’t think it will improve, there have been several generations of improvements where people have told me they are so good now, and every time I feel like crap within a minute or two.
I think that is another major problem with vr, it’s unusable by some percentage of people that I think is significant enough to affect the market (or lack thereof).
You’re absolutely right that is a major problem. The biggest reason is the mismatch between what your inner ear says (we are not moving) and what your eyes tell you (we are moving). I get nauseous really easily in VR.
That said I just bought a steam frame and have had pretty good luck because of how I’m using it. It’s completely wireless and I have a large space I can use it in. So I’ve been playing things that don’t require fast movement and where you have a space to explore / move around in. This allows me to physically walk around the real room while exploring in VR. It’s made a huge difference but not everyone has the luxury of a big empty room they can use for that. I just mention this in case anyone else was like me and wants to do VR but gets nauseous easily.
I’ve found an acid test for susceptibility to VR sickness. Driving in VR.
Most brains know what it feels like to be in a car, in control or otherwise. Feed in only the visuals of “being in a car” and watch the face turn green in tandem with the brain’s ancient “we’ve eaten poison!” subroutine kicking in.
In Elite: Dangerous, I can pirouette a Vulture round an asteroid field -permaboosting with flight assist off- shooting other ships all day long. Drop an SRV onto a moon and drive 100 metres, pass me the sick bucket.
I put this down to having plenty sensory memory of “car” but none of “high velocity space fighter”.
I have the reverse issue - i have absolutely no problems with my eyes saying something’s moving and my inner ear says i am stationary as in VR, but put me in the back seat of a car without the option to focus a far away point with my eyes and i get travel sick in a few minutes (some driving styles exacerbate the problem - aggressive stop and go in city traffic makes me puke in about 15 minutes with no way to avoid it - when an acquaintance of mine drove me home i actually made him stop after about 10 minutes so i could empty my stomach into the gutter).
Yup, that’s definitely a real problem for broad adoption. Technically solvable, I think, if lag and frame rates improve enough, but I don’t know if it’s feasible, and there’s likely a bell curve where the cost to accomodate sensitive people isn’t worth it.
It’s also possible you could train yourself to get used to it, though it might take you more time than most, but what would be a stong enough motivation to get through that? And you’d need to basically buy a VR head set and wear it a few more seconds every day until you could get some use out of it. Pretty insane ask.
It’s like chatbots, I don’t have a use case for a computer kissing my ass. People tell me “oh set it up on your home computer and VPN in and then you can confidentially tell your sycophantic chatbot to cancel the meeting”.
The chatbot is just as likely to tell you it canceled the meeting without cancelling the meeting.
There was a recent talk by the guy that started Zoom and he was pushing an AI technology that would attend meetings for you. It was so ridiculous because the ultimate dream would be a bunch of AI chatbots attending a meeting on behalf of their operators, and what would the point of that even be?
I think it was Angela Collier on YouTube if you want to share some rage.
My current employer is pushing AI HARD. Like “throw out old processes, 10x everything, the singularity is here so we can’t work the way we always have”.
The thing is, the best use case for AI I have found is replacing middle management. The bots are pretty good at summarizing a bunch of PRs and doc updates into weekly bullet point progress updates (which is 90% of how those managers are judged). I’ve flirted with the idea of making an AI team manager to replace the helicopter EMs and PMs and let the devs focus on the dev’ing.
That idea got shut down quite quickly… wonder why.
When Amazon announced in late October that it would cut roughly 14,000 corporate positions while leaving its warehouse workforce largely untouched, it signaled something executives have been quietly preparing for: AI’s first major casualty isn’t the factory worker. It’s the middle manager.
If you’re looking at new, a Quest 3S is the cheapest at $350, the equivalent of a Samsung UHD 55 inch TV. Not really cheap enough. But probably a VR headset is never going to be able to compete head-to-head with a TV because it has to have a higher resolution than the TV in a smaller space, so it’s always going to be more expensive. My hope is that it just gets good enough, maybe 1080p PPD equivalence while TV manufacturers keep chasing resolutions that don’t make a difference.
Yeah, that was a subsidized price when Suckerberg thought we’d all be buying real estate in the metaverse or whatever… looks like the actual price of the tech is still too high.
Really the best thing about AI is that it made everybody stop trying to make vr a thing as much, because you’re right, the use cases are already spelled out and it’s pretty much a dud (in terms of being shoehorned into everything).
VR and AR both have massive unrealised potential. It just seems the tech isn’t quite there to break through just yet, especially for AR.
AR has so many unsolvable privacy issues it’s wild …
It’s solvable if you take surveillance capitalism out of the equation, just as Valve are doing. AR with Meta behind it will never be something that is socially acceptable since their whole business model is selling out the user and everyone around them. With a company like Valve which has a pretty good track record regarding privacy (a.k.a the only things transferred regarding usage are what games you play to make store recommendations fit your taste and bug reports if you approve them) i can see a wider adoption taking place.
I don’t think that’s true, your personal privacy as the owner of the device is one thing, everyone else’s right to not be continuously photographed is another. Having Valve operate it over meta doesn’t solve that. Also, what happens when Gabe does and the investment bank that buys it decides they want to sell everyone data to maximise profit?
These things can be done in a privacy respecting way for other parties too. The computational power needed to realize a person is in the field of view and to process this person saying “i consent” is in everyones pocket nowadays.
I think if you can plan for somehow allowing concent for these things then you can also plan for bypassing it. Also it would need to film you to work out if you don’t consent and then it’s already breached the consent.
There’s a difference between passively waiting for a voice command by a person identified in RAM and storing these things. And sure, there will always be people breaking the rules, but if you actually try to make the product secure, the vast amount of people will NOT be fucking around with that.
Take Metas PervGlasses for example: There’s a LED that shows it is recording. You can remove that light with a simple dremel, and no one at Meta even thought about implementing a simple check like making the LED flash a OTP code to be recognized by the camera at the start of recording. It makes a whole lot of difference who is developing these things, trust me.
I think the problem is that shit manufacturers exist, so how do you regulate that. At this point you can only assume all AR glasses are sending everything they record to their manufacturer for on selling to the ir favourite data broker, because that’s literally the market. There severely limited options for ethical devices and those that do exist could be bought next week and their policies change on a dime.
We regulate that with laws with teeth. I know, that is a foreign concept for most of the US, but even there with California and lately NY there are areas who have started to hold corporations accountable (even if it is on a small scale yet). The GDPR is already basically making Metas glasses illegal in their current form, and they are currently involved into a record amount of lawsuits.
There is still a lot of work to do, but the basics have been prepared.
Honestly I don’t need a camera or anything integrated but I’d love to have an integrated screen for my glasses. Would be nice when putting things together to just sync it with my phone and just have it there, also maps. Look I have to wear glasses all the time might as well add a tiny bit more utility.
These exist
But are they intigratable in pre existing glasses? My prescription is non negotiable due to how bad my eyesight is without and I can’t do contacts. Also having them sync with my phone and having them do little to no processing would be my preferred method, rather than having them contain all the computational shit themselves.
GPS with accelerometers should be able to work out where you’re standing and where you’re facing, so you could have navigation with a floating marker over the turn you need to take instead of just having a mini-map, too.
Maybe but I’d personally prefer the mini-map, I’ve a built up hatred of floating way points.
That’s not AR though is it?
Kinda depends on the definition on that one, personally I would consider a IRL HUD to be a low level version of that since it would be intigraing those systems in a pretty intimate way.
We’ve mostly been looking in to how it can be utilized in a production environment with detailed machine stats at a glance, live setpoints without having to be near the control panel, aids for maintenance…that sort of things
That could be helpful, I think most tech and inlecs would find it more annoying than anything …
The meta display glasses would be cool if not for the whole meta part. You don’t even need to be able to access the camera. It should just be used for tracking.
That’s not really AR then is it, AR requires the overlay on reality, I guess it could be like a game OSD but a lot of that detail is probably more annoying than anything. A live map might be good sometimes, but do I need my heart rate showing all the time in regular day to day life? is it helpful to have a shopping list taking up space in my vision all the time? How do I interact with it if it can’t see my hands, do I then have to talk to it constantly to manipulate it? Can other people manipulate my OSD while I’m using it by saying the right thing? Seems pretty gimmicky …
No, not what I meant. I meant environment tracking, hand tracking, everything.
WE don’t need access to the camera for AR to work, the device just needs to be able to process the video stream.
The problem isnt your privacy, it’s everyone else’s. If there are glasses with cameras then some arsehole is running around photographing people without their permission. You might argue that if you’re out in public then you can be photographed but that’s a shit attitude, if someone is walking around photographing people they should at least have to make it obvious so people can have a say at the time or at least know about it before it turns out they are now an AI deepfake pornstar.
Yeah, that’s why you block user access to the camera.
Yeah because hacking devices isn’t a thing or anything …
at least in the US you don’t need permission to record people in public spaces.
Legal doesn’t mean right. There are a whole host of situations where you shouldn’t be filming and if someone is filming you want them to be obvious about it. Schools, playgrounds, change rooms etc.
schools and changing rooms are already somewhat because they aren’t considered public, playgrounds are insanely public and have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
I’m in my 40s and I just want to let you know that people have been saying this since I was 16.
Which is one of many reasons I’m not running out to buy a VR/AR rig.
That’s because the company that is behind most of the stuff being released is Meta. Noone likes Meta. I can’t even imagine Zuck liking Meta.
Unfortunately there isn’t a lot of money in that market anymore, since it’s not AI.
Hard disagree on VR.
As far as I can tell, VR is 100% fully realized. In the future, you will be able to do everything you can do in VR right now and nothing more than that, but it will be a better experience, smoother, higher res, faster frame rates.
I think that it if there were a really compelling use case, people would put up with the current technical limitations to go do it.
I think we’ll slowly see adoption rise as software support & comfort improve, but this is basically the VR landscape: sims, games, porn, and some creative stuff.
I think the only really ground breaking thing would be if res became affordable enough to replace a 70" TV at a reasonable price, that–plus how much 3D kicks ass in VR–would definitely move some units.
I get nauseated very fast with a vr headset and I don’t think it will improve, there have been several generations of improvements where people have told me they are so good now, and every time I feel like crap within a minute or two.
I think that is another major problem with vr, it’s unusable by some percentage of people that I think is significant enough to affect the market (or lack thereof).
You’re absolutely right that is a major problem. The biggest reason is the mismatch between what your inner ear says (we are not moving) and what your eyes tell you (we are moving). I get nauseous really easily in VR.
That said I just bought a steam frame and have had pretty good luck because of how I’m using it. It’s completely wireless and I have a large space I can use it in. So I’ve been playing things that don’t require fast movement and where you have a space to explore / move around in. This allows me to physically walk around the real room while exploring in VR. It’s made a huge difference but not everyone has the luxury of a big empty room they can use for that. I just mention this in case anyone else was like me and wants to do VR but gets nauseous easily.
I’ve found an acid test for susceptibility to VR sickness. Driving in VR.
Most brains know what it feels like to be in a car, in control or otherwise. Feed in only the visuals of “being in a car” and watch the face turn green in tandem with the brain’s ancient “we’ve eaten poison!” subroutine kicking in.
In Elite: Dangerous, I can pirouette a Vulture round an asteroid field -permaboosting with flight assist off- shooting other ships all day long. Drop an SRV onto a moon and drive 100 metres, pass me the sick bucket.
I put this down to having plenty sensory memory of “car” but none of “high velocity space fighter”.
I have the reverse issue - i have absolutely no problems with my eyes saying something’s moving and my inner ear says i am stationary as in VR, but put me in the back seat of a car without the option to focus a far away point with my eyes and i get travel sick in a few minutes (some driving styles exacerbate the problem - aggressive stop and go in city traffic makes me puke in about 15 minutes with no way to avoid it - when an acquaintance of mine drove me home i actually made him stop after about 10 minutes so i could empty my stomach into the gutter).
Yup, that’s definitely a real problem for broad adoption. Technically solvable, I think, if lag and frame rates improve enough, but I don’t know if it’s feasible, and there’s likely a bell curve where the cost to accomodate sensitive people isn’t worth it.
It’s also possible you could train yourself to get used to it, though it might take you more time than most, but what would be a stong enough motivation to get through that? And you’d need to basically buy a VR head set and wear it a few more seconds every day until you could get some use out of it. Pretty insane ask.
It’s like chatbots, I don’t have a use case for a computer kissing my ass. People tell me “oh set it up on your home computer and VPN in and then you can confidentially tell your sycophantic chatbot to cancel the meeting”.
I would rather just cancel the meeting?
The chatbot is just as likely to tell you it canceled the meeting without cancelling the meeting.
There was a recent talk by the guy that started Zoom and he was pushing an AI technology that would attend meetings for you. It was so ridiculous because the ultimate dream would be a bunch of AI chatbots attending a meeting on behalf of their operators, and what would the point of that even be?
I think it was Angela Collier on YouTube if you want to share some rage.
My current employer is pushing AI HARD. Like “throw out old processes, 10x everything, the singularity is here so we can’t work the way we always have”.
The thing is, the best use case for AI I have found is replacing middle management. The bots are pretty good at summarizing a bunch of PRs and doc updates into weekly bullet point progress updates (which is 90% of how those managers are judged). I’ve flirted with the idea of making an AI team manager to replace the helicopter EMs and PMs and let the devs focus on the dev’ing.
That idea got shut down quite quickly… wonder why.
Good news:
https://peoplemanagingpeople.com/hr-strategy/ai-middle-management/
Wait, if they get rid of PM’s who is going to hop out during a long tense meeting and get donuts and coffee?
This seems really short sighted.
+1
Severe motion sickness issues, even in traditional games, are more common than people think.
Yeah I don’t enjoy watching other people play FPS games either.
I can’t play Wolfenstein 3D because of that.
VR is cheap enough to replace a TV, just not good enough yet.
If you’re looking at new, a Quest 3S is the cheapest at $350, the equivalent of a Samsung UHD 55 inch TV. Not really cheap enough. But probably a VR headset is never going to be able to compete head-to-head with a TV because it has to have a higher resolution than the TV in a smaller space, so it’s always going to be more expensive. My hope is that it just gets good enough, maybe 1080p PPD equivalence while TV manufacturers keep chasing resolutions that don’t make a difference.
was more thinking of quest 2 when quest 3s came out and psvr2 pricing ($300), which isn’t that much above the cheapest non roku garbage
Yeah, that was a subsidized price when Suckerberg thought we’d all be buying real estate in the metaverse or whatever… looks like the actual price of the tech is still too high.
Really the best thing about AI is that it made everybody stop trying to make vr a thing as much, because you’re right, the use cases are already spelled out and it’s pretty much a dud (in terms of being shoehorned into everything).
You have to admit, though, the Metaverse was one solid comedy highlights reel from beginning to end.