Update on the conflict in Ukraine for September 22, 2024… - Russian forces continue advancing along the line of contact;- Ukrainian sources are claiming to h...
We’re not posting THAT. No one in their right mind would post shit like this, except maybe in “Shit Reactionaries Say”.
As for this whole argument… It is incredibly dogmatic (as in “lib purity/moralism”) and unhelpful. I do not give a damn about what this guy’s chud takes on vaccines are, we’re not posting his videos to promote his channel. I for once care about primarily two things: 1) “what effect does a specific article or piece of work have on the people, what sort of message is it trying to propagate?” and 2) “Is it in any way useful for the revolutionary cause?”
If answers to both of these questions satisfy me, I’m probably going to be fine with it. And I don’t think MLs should be engaging in this sort of ultra-left purity shit. Information is information, even if a chud presented it. It’s everybody’s job to critically assess it.
I gotta have this exact same argument when The New Atlas states that some reactionary military government is good actually, and people on Hexbear and Lemmygrad are like “oh no the Myanmar junta is anti-American, that’s why we should support them in their bloody civil war”.
You ignored my comment on the global warming and vaccine thing. I honestly don’t find this to be a productive convo if you’re just going to completely ignore everything I’m saying and go to insults of “ultra-left purity shit”.
“oh no the Myanmar junta is anti-American, that’s why we should support them in their bloody civil war”.
Isn’t critical support exactly for this purpose? People support Hezbollah for their stance on the colonization and genocide of Palestine, but not necessarily all of their other takes on lgbt people. Or what about Assad and his beliefs that gay couple shouldn’t be allowed to adopt children for entirely reactionary reasons?
I’m sure people on hexbear don’t support those ideas in the slightest and only support the organization insofar as it pertains to Palestine. Hence critical support as opposed to uncritical support.
I’ve never heard a leftist, much less an ML, use “critical support” to justify allying with fascists. Maybe you can enlighten me. Honestly, I swear to God I’m not being snarky now, I’d like to know. As for Hezbollah, they’re still a liberation anti-colonial movement. I don’t think many MLs actually support Assad, most seem to oppose Western fuckery with Syria. I guess if Berletic fighting in Gaza, I might “critically support” him.
The Hexbear news comm has a “no reactionary source” rule. I guess we can’t all be the same, but reactionary sources are problematic in that 1) they send clinks and views to a fascist, and 2) when the fascists says something on the boundary, there’s yet another pointless battle about the truth of said POV. I guess we shouldn’t care what liberals think, but I imagine that posting a reactionary that shares our views on Ukraine makes non MLs think we’ve lost the plot.
The New Atlas states that some reactionary military government is good actually
Then no one is going to post that. We’re only posting that we deem useful. In any case, most people on this instance are capable of dissecting reactionary bullshit. And, you should not take anyone’s word uncritically, even if it’s coming from Marxists - no one knows everything, everyone can make mistakes.
if you’re just going to completely ignore everything I’m saying
Interesting. Multiple people explained it succinctly, but it is us ignoring you and not the other way around. At the very least address the counterpoints presented to you.
>The New Atlas states that some reactionary military government is good actually
Then no one is going to post that.
I swear to go, it happens all the time.
if you’re just going to completely ignore everything I’m saying
“and go right to insults”. Finish the sentence. “Lib purity” is not being against a guy who’s hard right? Like I can get there’s a case for disagreement, but come on.
“Lib purity” is not being against a guy who’s hard right?
No. “Lib purity” is dismissing all information from a source you disagree with, even if some information coming from them is factual and truthful, specifically because they’re a chud. I stress again - we are against the guy, overall. But just because HE said something does not make that something untruthful. We CAN engage with the information critically. We don’t live in a world where every source is a ML and we can just consume information without fear of it being compromised. It is no reason to not post good bits. And by the way, I watched the video - there is nothing reactionary in it. If there was - I’m sure there would have been a disclaimer.
Imagine canning Lenin because he supposedly had some socially conservative takes.
We did not ignore completely what you were saying, we addressed your issue with not posting Berletic’s takes on Ukraine and explained why this sort of thing is dogmatic.
You have to have it until you come to the realization that Marxists are capable of engaging with information in ways that liberals are not. Marxists can, and indeed must, draw information from across the political spectrum in order to meet the requirements of material analysis. Cutting off an information stream due to ideology harms, rather than benefits, the ability of Marxist’s to analyze what’s going on in the world.
To be honest, I don’t understand how some people are arriving at the conclusions they are in this thread. I’d think a warning is a very low bar to ask for w/ regards to the way you’re presenting it. Like, “Hey, this is from a source that I find trustworthy on X narrow subject, but on Y, I do not advise listening to them.” Then there is at least a baseline established on the why. Because: 1) It is foolish to not guide people at all on what is and isn’t trustworthy and 2) It becomes hard to distinguish who is and isn’t laundering anti-communist politics if they can post just anything as long as it’s agreeable to communism and anti-imperialism some of the time.
In particular, w/ regards to this part:
Cutting off an information stream due to ideology harms, rather than benefits, the ability of Marxist’s to analyze what’s going on in the world.
I can guess what the intent is here, but it can’t be approached blindly as an individualist problem of discernment. For this to work, it requires an organized and disciplined approach to information. You wouldn’t tell a communist to listen to Fox News for 4 hours each day because they might “miss out on information streams” if they don’t. Cutting off information or not requires processing it with care. China didn’t cut themselves off from information about the world as a whole, but they did develop their own social media and messaging platforms, making it much harder for the west to come in and astroturf on them and their people.
It’s not liberalism to recognize that managing information and how people engage with it is a critical part of developing towards socialism and communism and their goals. We are supposed to approach it from the standpoint of actual truth, not manipulation for selfish gain, but that doesn’t mean you let just anything in because it contains a nugget of truth in it. You must have some boundaries, it’s just a question of what and when.
This is a very well reasoned response, and for the most part i would have to agree, particularly with the bit about having an organized and disciplined approach to information (that was excellently put and i will certainly remember that phrase). Disclaimers can and should be added, if only for newer comrades who may not be aware of the biases of a source.
That being said i wonder if we can’t just use a bot that would call up a boilerplate disclaimer for sources that are used on a somewhat regular basis which are of dubious political orientation.
I like the idea of a bot for it, for certain domains maybe? That seems feasible, at least for some of it. For youtube links, it might get hairy, since they don’t necessarily have channel information in the name (unless there’s a way a bot can extract some kind of metadata from where the link leads?). Don’t know if the admins would go for it or not though, either way, or who to ask about that kind of thing. But I like the idea.
Well said and agreed on the direction you’re pointing us towards. Not sure I agree on exact implementation details, but I also haven’t thought about it too much. Thanks for speaking up. Keep doing it
It’s not really a struggle session if it is just you having it. Seems more like a personal grievance that way. If someone who is far right said the sky is blue, would you assume it must be green? Facts are facts, we shouldn’t refuse to look at them because someone we despise is saying them. If you’re worried about empowering the far right, the worst thing you could do is refuse to look at reality because occasionally some far right nutter talks about it instead of their usual drivel.
If you’re worried about empowering the far right, the worst thing you could do is refuse to look at reality because occasionally some far right nutter talks about it
Indeed, because once we start doing that then we allow the right to monopolize anti-establishment and anti-imperialist rhetoric. You don’t dimish the right by doing that, you diminish the left and drive people toward the right. People by and large realize that something is not right and they look for whoever will validate that feeling and give them an explanation. If the left fails to do that then the right will. The surest way to alienate people who are just beginning to have some nascent class consciousness is to give in to the liberal moralizing impulse (of which the ultra-left purity fetish is a manifestation).
If a right wing source presents a correct geopolitical analysis then we need to acknowledge that, otherwise we just discredit ourselves. And then, if and when they go on to state nonsense about other topics we will have the credibility to say “no, actually on this topic they are wrong” and explain why and convince people that we communists have the more correct analysis on the greatest number of issues, because we do not make the idealist errors that the right does.
wtf does my “disgust” have to do with the facts presented? You’re just another shrill lib moralist who demands purity instead of, y’know, facts. Other people here have already pointed out how the facts here line up… how is it not naive to demand that everyone you’re getting info from pass your own personal idpol litmus test before accepting the facts? Just debunk the claims with facts or move on.
this isn’t a struggle session btw lol none of us are terribly interested in your “struggles” after showing your ass like this.
boo hoo :'( name a fact from the original video that this thread is about that is incorrect and give me factual sources why it is not correct. why is this so much to ask from a naysayer
I think this response is a bit harsh. I can understand where they are coming from, and once upon a time i myself may have had a similar kneejerk reaction. I think that as i matured (politically, though age also helps to put things into perspective) i came to understand that such an emotional reaction was not productive. Criticize what needs to be criticized and learn as much as you can from any source that you can. As Lenin said the most important thing a young revolutionary can do is учиться, учиться и учиться.
I think what the OP of this comment chain needs to ask themselves is this: there are already enough imperialist shills trying to discredit and smear anti-imperialist voices, regardless whether these voices come from the left or the right (and frequently conflating the two anyway); do i really want to help them do that and what does my revolutionary cause gain by doing so?
Is it brusque? Sure. But what exactly is factually wrong with what I’m saying? I AM criticizing what they’re saying because it’s just moralism. They make an emotionally charged statement where the gist is simply that they think the source has had other bad takes (thanks, we’ll take that into consideration) and then takes it personally when others point out that the factual essence of what the source is saying is correct so their supposed character is irrelevant.
It really is not my responsibility to spare the feelings of those who charge in with emotionally and morally charged “arguments” and then martyr themselves when there is pushback from people who honestly just want to know what they’re getting at. They still have not made a single factual claim here!
Fair enough. You’re not wrong and your reaction is valid, but i guess i just don’t like seeing strife in communist spaces. I think we can afford to have a little more patience for our comrades than we typically do with others online, and if they are wrong about something first make an effort to explain rather than rush to condemn and dismiss them.
We could all stand to be a little less judgemental, and we should remind ourselves that most of us were not always communists. We grow and we learn. Not too long ago most of us probably had plenty of bad takes.
I see your point and will try and exercise a bit more patience in the future, but I do think that part of what helped me develop from a radlib into a leftist was the occasional cold reminder when I stepped out of line without doing any investigation.
If one enters a conversation about a conflict in a leftist space where the stakes are as high as they are (WW3, really) and tries to disprove facts by doing ad hominem stuff, you deserve a bit of ridicule because that’s not a real analysis. Acting haughty and doubling down on it and pouting when others besides myself directly ask for some proof is also not really a good look. Nor is tattling to the mods when you’re losing the room.
Please just have some facts if you’re going to walk directly into a thread and say that it’s all bullshit and don’t take it personally when people lose patience when you do not. It’s not asking much.
“Disagree on his politics”? Are you not disgusted by polemics that global warming isn’t real or that vaccines are dangerous?
I can’t believe that I need to have this struggle session every single time someone posts a hard right source.
We’re not posting THAT. No one in their right mind would post shit like this, except maybe in “Shit Reactionaries Say”.
As for this whole argument… It is incredibly dogmatic (as in “lib purity/moralism”) and unhelpful. I do not give a damn about what this guy’s chud takes on vaccines are, we’re not posting his videos to promote his channel. I for once care about primarily two things: 1) “what effect does a specific article or piece of work have on the people, what sort of message is it trying to propagate?” and 2) “Is it in any way useful for the revolutionary cause?”
If answers to both of these questions satisfy me, I’m probably going to be fine with it. And I don’t think MLs should be engaging in this sort of ultra-left purity shit. Information is information, even if a chud presented it. It’s everybody’s job to critically assess it.
I gotta have this exact same argument when The New Atlas states that some reactionary military government is good actually, and people on Hexbear and Lemmygrad are like “oh no the Myanmar junta is anti-American, that’s why we should support them in their bloody civil war”.
You ignored my comment on the global warming and vaccine thing. I honestly don’t find this to be a productive convo if you’re just going to completely ignore everything I’m saying and go to insults of “ultra-left purity shit”.
Isn’t critical support exactly for this purpose? People support Hezbollah for their stance on the colonization and genocide of Palestine, but not necessarily all of their other takes on lgbt people. Or what about Assad and his beliefs that gay couple shouldn’t be allowed to adopt children for entirely reactionary reasons?
I’m sure people on hexbear don’t support those ideas in the slightest and only support the organization insofar as it pertains to Palestine. Hence critical support as opposed to uncritical support.
I’ve never heard a leftist, much less an ML, use “critical support” to justify allying with fascists. Maybe you can enlighten me. Honestly, I swear to God I’m not being snarky now, I’d like to know. As for Hezbollah, they’re still a liberation anti-colonial movement. I don’t think many MLs actually support Assad, most seem to oppose Western fuckery with Syria. I guess if Berletic fighting in Gaza, I might “critically support” him.
The Hexbear news comm has a “no reactionary source” rule. I guess we can’t all be the same, but reactionary sources are problematic in that 1) they send clinks and views to a fascist, and 2) when the fascists says something on the boundary, there’s yet another pointless battle about the truth of said POV. I guess we shouldn’t care what liberals think, but I imagine that posting a reactionary that shares our views on Ukraine makes non MLs think we’ve lost the plot.
Then no one is going to post that. We’re only posting that we deem useful. In any case, most people on this instance are capable of dissecting reactionary bullshit. And, you should not take anyone’s word uncritically, even if it’s coming from Marxists - no one knows everything, everyone can make mistakes.
Interesting. Multiple people explained it succinctly, but it is us ignoring you and not the other way around. At the very least address the counterpoints presented to you.
I swear to go, it happens all the time.
“and go right to insults”. Finish the sentence. “Lib purity” is not being against a guy who’s hard right? Like I can get there’s a case for disagreement, but come on.
No. “Lib purity” is dismissing all information from a source you disagree with, even if some information coming from them is factual and truthful, specifically because they’re a chud. I stress again - we are against the guy, overall. But just because HE said something does not make that something untruthful. We CAN engage with the information critically. We don’t live in a world where every source is a ML and we can just consume information without fear of it being compromised. It is no reason to not post good bits. And by the way, I watched the video - there is nothing reactionary in it. If there was - I’m sure there would have been a disclaimer.
Imagine canning Lenin because he supposedly had some socially conservative takes.
We did not ignore completely what you were saying, we addressed your issue with not posting Berletic’s takes on Ukraine and explained why this sort of thing is dogmatic.
You have to have it until you come to the realization that Marxists are capable of engaging with information in ways that liberals are not. Marxists can, and indeed must, draw information from across the political spectrum in order to meet the requirements of material analysis. Cutting off an information stream due to ideology harms, rather than benefits, the ability of Marxist’s to analyze what’s going on in the world.
To be honest, I don’t understand how some people are arriving at the conclusions they are in this thread. I’d think a warning is a very low bar to ask for w/ regards to the way you’re presenting it. Like, “Hey, this is from a source that I find trustworthy on X narrow subject, but on Y, I do not advise listening to them.” Then there is at least a baseline established on the why. Because: 1) It is foolish to not guide people at all on what is and isn’t trustworthy and 2) It becomes hard to distinguish who is and isn’t laundering anti-communist politics if they can post just anything as long as it’s agreeable to communism and anti-imperialism some of the time.
In particular, w/ regards to this part:
I can guess what the intent is here, but it can’t be approached blindly as an individualist problem of discernment. For this to work, it requires an organized and disciplined approach to information. You wouldn’t tell a communist to listen to Fox News for 4 hours each day because they might “miss out on information streams” if they don’t. Cutting off information or not requires processing it with care. China didn’t cut themselves off from information about the world as a whole, but they did develop their own social media and messaging platforms, making it much harder for the west to come in and astroturf on them and their people.
It’s not liberalism to recognize that managing information and how people engage with it is a critical part of developing towards socialism and communism and their goals. We are supposed to approach it from the standpoint of actual truth, not manipulation for selfish gain, but that doesn’t mean you let just anything in because it contains a nugget of truth in it. You must have some boundaries, it’s just a question of what and when.
This is a very well reasoned response, and for the most part i would have to agree, particularly with the bit about having an organized and disciplined approach to information (that was excellently put and i will certainly remember that phrase). Disclaimers can and should be added, if only for newer comrades who may not be aware of the biases of a source.
That being said i wonder if we can’t just use a bot that would call up a boilerplate disclaimer for sources that are used on a somewhat regular basis which are of dubious political orientation.
I like the idea of a bot for it, for certain domains maybe? That seems feasible, at least for some of it. For youtube links, it might get hairy, since they don’t necessarily have channel information in the name (unless there’s a way a bot can extract some kind of metadata from where the link leads?). Don’t know if the admins would go for it or not though, either way, or who to ask about that kind of thing. But I like the idea.
Well said and agreed on the direction you’re pointing us towards. Not sure I agree on exact implementation details, but I also haven’t thought about it too much. Thanks for speaking up. Keep doing it
Disclaimers are good and useful, not posting anything because chud is dogmatic and unhelpful.
It’s not really a struggle session if it is just you having it. Seems more like a personal grievance that way. If someone who is far right said the sky is blue, would you assume it must be green? Facts are facts, we shouldn’t refuse to look at them because someone we despise is saying them. If you’re worried about empowering the far right, the worst thing you could do is refuse to look at reality because occasionally some far right nutter talks about it instead of their usual drivel.
Indeed, because once we start doing that then we allow the right to monopolize anti-establishment and anti-imperialist rhetoric. You don’t dimish the right by doing that, you diminish the left and drive people toward the right. People by and large realize that something is not right and they look for whoever will validate that feeling and give them an explanation. If the left fails to do that then the right will. The surest way to alienate people who are just beginning to have some nascent class consciousness is to give in to the liberal moralizing impulse (of which the ultra-left purity fetish is a manifestation).
If a right wing source presents a correct geopolitical analysis then we need to acknowledge that, otherwise we just discredit ourselves. And then, if and when they go on to state nonsense about other topics we will have the credibility to say “no, actually on this topic they are wrong” and explain why and convince people that we communists have the more correct analysis on the greatest number of issues, because we do not make the idealist errors that the right does.
wtf does my “disgust” have to do with the facts presented? You’re just another shrill lib moralist who demands purity instead of, y’know, facts. Other people here have already pointed out how the facts here line up… how is it not naive to demand that everyone you’re getting info from pass your own personal idpol litmus test before accepting the facts? Just debunk the claims with facts or move on.
this isn’t a struggle session btw lol none of us are terribly interested in your “struggles” after showing your ass like this.
Please don’t reply to me in this post again
lmao someone’s mad
I guess that Lemmygrad has no disengage rule, so I’m blocking
boo hoo :'( name a fact from the original video that this thread is about that is incorrect and give me factual sources why it is not correct. why is this so much to ask from a naysayer
I think this response is a bit harsh. I can understand where they are coming from, and once upon a time i myself may have had a similar kneejerk reaction. I think that as i matured (politically, though age also helps to put things into perspective) i came to understand that such an emotional reaction was not productive. Criticize what needs to be criticized and learn as much as you can from any source that you can. As Lenin said the most important thing a young revolutionary can do is учиться, учиться и учиться.
I think what the OP of this comment chain needs to ask themselves is this: there are already enough imperialist shills trying to discredit and smear anti-imperialist voices, regardless whether these voices come from the left or the right (and frequently conflating the two anyway); do i really want to help them do that and what does my revolutionary cause gain by doing so?
Is it brusque? Sure. But what exactly is factually wrong with what I’m saying? I AM criticizing what they’re saying because it’s just moralism. They make an emotionally charged statement where the gist is simply that they think the source has had other bad takes (thanks, we’ll take that into consideration) and then takes it personally when others point out that the factual essence of what the source is saying is correct so their supposed character is irrelevant.
It really is not my responsibility to spare the feelings of those who charge in with emotionally and morally charged “arguments” and then martyr themselves when there is pushback from people who honestly just want to know what they’re getting at. They still have not made a single factual claim here!
Fair enough. You’re not wrong and your reaction is valid, but i guess i just don’t like seeing strife in communist spaces. I think we can afford to have a little more patience for our comrades than we typically do with others online, and if they are wrong about something first make an effort to explain rather than rush to condemn and dismiss them.
We could all stand to be a little less judgemental, and we should remind ourselves that most of us were not always communists. We grow and we learn. Not too long ago most of us probably had plenty of bad takes.
I see your point and will try and exercise a bit more patience in the future, but I do think that part of what helped me develop from a radlib into a leftist was the occasional cold reminder when I stepped out of line without doing any investigation.
If one enters a conversation about a conflict in a leftist space where the stakes are as high as they are (WW3, really) and tries to disprove facts by doing ad hominem stuff, you deserve a bit of ridicule because that’s not a real analysis. Acting haughty and doubling down on it and pouting when others besides myself directly ask for some proof is also not really a good look. Nor is tattling to the mods when you’re losing the room.
Please just have some facts if you’re going to walk directly into a thread and say that it’s all bullshit and don’t take it personally when people lose patience when you do not. It’s not asking much.