- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
American Dr Mark Perlmutter, who has volunteered in Gaza, says one of his Palestinian colleagues was taken by Israeli occupation forces, had his fingers shattered and was told to confess to being a member of Hamas or have his wife gang raped in front of him.
Soldiers ‘crushed’ his fingers, Perlmutter explains, adding that they also threatened to ‘send a drone to your bedroom window and incinerate your children.’ The doctor did not confess and spent 11 months being tortured in Israeli detention.
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This is yet another one of many examples that affirms the correct answer to “does israel have a right to exist?” is no. No nation has an inherent right to exist, but certainly a nation as horrible as israel should not exist for many reasons, including morally, just like how nazi germany has no right to exist.
For everyone wondering if this means genocide against Israel – no! Of course not! This means the nation – that is, the government, the borders, etc. – needs to be reformed.
You gotta wonder how Israel will get out from under netenyahu/spelling. He’s their sadam now
Nope nope nope. Putting the blame entirely on Netanyahu is like putting the entire blame on Trump. Both are symptoms of an underlying society and many people enabling and condoning that behavior. Look at stats, watch translated videos of their media, read Israeli and non-Israeli historians. This shit ain’t new and some would argue is exactly what the Zionist state was created to carry out.
Oh youre not wrong but sadam wasn’t in a vacuum either is my broader point. These personalities have always existed in every time period in human history. It wasn’t until the cognitive revolution of he 50s did we start to develop archetypes of personalities and on a broader macro sense the cognitive behaviors of societies as a whole.
Saddam quickly went from ruling by popular support to ruling by scaring the shit out of any opposition.
Netanyahu and other Fascists in Israel still enjoy comfortable majority support in Israel. Even if people protest against Netanyahu, they are largely still in favor of ethnical cleansing and genocide against the Palestinians. Most people in Iraq didn’t need reeducation when Saddam was toppled. The vast majority of Israelis need a reeducation and be confronted with their crimes at large and have hundreds of thousands of their war criminals permanently locked away in order to cure the Fascism that has deep roots in their society now. It will take decades to safe them from who they have chosen to become.
Populism always leads to fascism pretty much every time. It’s the third part of the fire formula. Air fuel and spark.
Capitalism populism and power becomes fascism.
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Soooo Mao then?
I think you’re getting into dangerous territory with that thinking. People are not a monolith, even when an outspoken and visible portion of the population are monsters. Secondly, you say “Nazi germany has no right to exist,” but Germany does. Painting with that broad a brush and speaking in such absolutes opens the door to horrible acts. Because the zionists speak the exact same way about Palestine. That’s where that thinking and language can lead you.
Germany does not have the right to exist. The German people have a right to self determination, like any people in the world does. This right is not tied to any specific state.
It is also completely absurd to define such rights to a specific state. Any specific state needs a specific government, a specific territory and a specific people. The only thing that carried over from the Nazi era was the people. A different government was formed on a very different territory. If you claim “Germany has a right to exist” in connection with the Nazi Reich, that Germany would have to include large swaths of what is todays Poland and Czech Republic.
Meanwhile there was no Israel in 1947. There was no Israeli people in 1947. The entire people is a construct, that only started to become a reality through 80 years of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinian people. Now that they are a people is a reality. That this people thus has the right to form a fascist state and deny the rights to the people who they have uprooted is nonsense.
If the US was to invade Canada, drive the Canadians north of the arctic circle and then claim this is US-Canada now because the filled it with millions of their own settlers, that does not create a “right to exist” for US-Canada.
Theoretically, of course I agree with you.
But saying an existing country has no right to exist, while discussing the very real problems of said country, while said country does, in fact, exist, is treading on incredibly dangerous, straight up genocidal ground.
How can you guys not see the problems inherent in that, while half of the people are arguing against the existence of fucking nuance? You all can’t be that dense.
while said country does, in fact, exist
Irrelevant in whether or not it has the right to do so
straight up genocidal ground
Don’t be an idiot, it’s nowhere near the same thing
If that’s what you think, extend the thought experiment. Say you get what you want, Israel stops existing tomorrow. What happens to everyone there?
Say you get what you want, Israel stops existing tomorrow
Easy: that’s not what I want
What happens to everyone there?
A different government rules over them
The state does exist. The state is inherently built on crimes. Saying this state must cease to exist does not mean that the people should cease to exist.
Again taking Nazi Germany as an example. The German Reich ceased to exist. There is no Führer, no Reichschancellor, Reichsgovernment… Incidently there is a movement called “Reichsbürger” (citizens of the Reich) that proclaim the Federal Republic of Germany is a company and not a sovereign nation, so instead they claim the Reich to still exist. But it does not.
There was no genocide against Germans to make the Reich cease to exist and while there were ample use of strategies that by todays standards are war crimes against the Reich, the responsibility for starting the war laid with the Germans.
If we apply this to the state of Israel. Israel started to ethnically cleanse the area. Israel is inherently an Apartheid regime and the current state would never obey by international law, end the illegal occupation, give back stolen land, recompense the victims, punish the criminals and give equal rights to Palestinians living inside the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel. The Israeli constitution itself says that Israel is a Jewish ethnostate, thus by the constitution Israel is a racist and criminal state in violation of international law.
You cannot reform this state like you couldn’t reform the German Reich. The state and all of its institutions need to be rebuild from the ground up. And then in a way that grants equal rights and justice for all living between the river and the sea.
There is no equation of victimhood here. Zionists have stolen Palestinian houses and land.
There were Nazi Germans occupying houses in Poland which they stole from Jews. After the Holocaust those Nazis were expelled back to where they came from. In this case from Nazi Germany (which included Poland) to Germany (without Poland)
My dude, the whole thing is a settler colonialist project. It has no right to exist, and no word salad attempting to introduce nuance into a black and white situation is convincing anyone otherwise. This isn’t Reddit.
The fact that you think no nuance exists in the Israel Palestine conflict is genuinely insane.
The only nuance there is to be had is for Israelis born there who are advocating for complete integration and reparations under a one state solution. Bar that, they can fuck right off.
Agreed.
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The Palestine-Israel conflict is famous for people assuming there is a clear solution, and then later admitting they were wrong.
There is only one clear solution but people don’t like it, it’s the elimination of all Zionists by all means necessary
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It’s unclassy to reinterpretively paraphrase someone with a block quote like that.
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That’s some really fucked up thinking, on par with invading forces. You’re essentially advocating for a genocide, including the masses of people in Israel who are constantly protesting against this war
Even I, a person who lives in East Europe, who has been affected by Russiay entire life, with Ukraine invasion to top it off, do not wish harm upon every single russian.
If you start thinking like them, then what makes you morally better?
He said Israel, not israelians. but it would either be another diaspora or their neighbors will take revenge and continue the cycle of hatred.
Which might be one of the objectives as well. “You can’t let our people in the hands of the arabs, they are gonna kill us all in revenge for us killing them!”. Ensure the israeli state exists because without it, their people die.
So by your logic, due to how much problems the US is causing to it’s neighbours and in the world right now, it is morally acceptable to destroy USA and make Americans look for new homes?
Bruh, I sometimes feel like reddit is mild compared to whatever the fuck I walked into
If we were in the 18th century, for sure. for a country more than 200 years old? No. Israel is not even a century old. There are barely 3 generations there.
Decleration of independence does not equal people suddenly appearing there on that date. 3 generations? What? You clearly missed your history lessons. Why do you think archeology keeps finding Jewish artifacts on Palestinian land? The Jewish people have been living there for at least 5000 years. The Land of Israel, being under different names under different world powers, has existed for so long even the bible revolves around it. You can start by searching for “12 tribes of Israel”
There have been multiple attempts to remove them from those lands, like when Roman empire invaded and then re-named their land to Palestine to spite Israel, but… ehh, this got too long
If you condemn all the people for the actions of their government then you are no better than they are.
Saying that the nation state of Israel doesn’t have a right to exist isn’t the same as saying the people of Israel don’t have the right to exist. A nation state is just a legal construct, it doesn’t have human rights. The people who live in any region are not the nation state, and they have a right to exist, but they do not have the right to create and maintain an ethnostate that oppresses other people.
this is your strawman judging you
the comment is referring to a government
Even the allies didn’t deny Germany had a right to exist just its then leadership and most individually culpable
Except that the Nazi nation state no longer existed after World War two. It was dismantled and replaced with a new one, it wasn’t even contiguous it was carved up and divvied out to allies who had different ideas about what the new state should look like. The Nazi state didn’t have a right to exist, and neither does any nation state. They’re just legal constructs and should be discarded when they are harmful.
This division was a mistake we undid ultimately and their is continuity between pre ww2 Germany, nazi Germany, and present day Germany is many or even most respects.
We punished its leaders and some of the worst criminals. We did not declare the state which included millions of people to simply not exist render its land to France and drive millions into the sea or extermination.
Its people have every right to remain.
Hey man what happened to Germany and specifically Berlin after the war? Just checking
It didn’t cease to exist nor were its people required to sonehow all flee to France
That’s not what I asked I asked what happened, not what didn’t happen.
We are all dirt to these people.
Data you get from people by using torture is automatically invalid, especially when it comes to getting people to “admit” things.
When are we finally going to consider this the war crime/crime against humanity it is?
Torture isn’t useful as an intelligence-gathering tool, but that’s not what it’s being used for here. Torture works quite well for manufacturing confessions to use as propaganda to justify further killing/torture/other crimes.
Yeah, agree. Hence the crime against humanity stance.
This only applies in countries where the have a rule of law. Those countries usually don’t torture.
How is that definition useful? The USA and Israel both torture and have plenty of laws.
“rule of law”
They both ignore the law as they please. Be rich, white and you can do whatever you want.
I don’t understand the point of that, honestly. Torturing someone (thus punishing them regardless) into confessing, coaxing a confession out of someone making the confession itself highly incredulous. What’s the point?
Thanks for all the replies, guys! I appreciate the responses but at the same time I’m now even more depressed. 😬
The point is to kill and torture these people. Calling them terrorists is a tried and true tactic.
They will call him Hamas whether he confesses or not and then say they killed another Hamas terrorist.
Why torture though? Just kill him if that’s the point.
Because they’re sadistic fucks
Torture is for the pleasure of the torturer (and possibly those ordering it). As a secondary impact, it may terrorize a populace. It serves no other purpose.
Cruelty is the point
Because it’s a genocide.
If he confesses they’re justified because “he was totally hamas” if he holds out they’re justified because “he’s a highly trained hamas agent”.
The BBC and New York times will publish the confession uncritically to manufacture consent for Israel torturing doctors.
To push them into breaking so when you kill them you can say that the torture is justified.
Hamas is an excuse, the genocide will happen regardless
Confess -> got a video of a “Hamas member” who works in the medical field confessing to whatever you want.
Doesn’t confess -> torture him to death and don’t share the story or simply increase the count of “Hamas militants” killed that you’ll show later to journalists and other governments.
The point is cruely and supremacy. Everyone knows torture doesn’t work when it comes to extracting information, even the Nazis knew that much. What they want is to instill fear and terror into every Palestinian, in an attempt to bring the entire population into despair and cripple the resistance. That’s why the IDF routinely kidnaps Palestinians, including children, without any evidence or fair trial, to incarcerate them indefinitely in torture prisons that are more inhumane than we can possibly imagine.
Palestinian Prisoners in Israeli Prisons
Palestinians are jailed without charge, forced into false confessions, routinely tortured, raped, denied medical attention, and some even killed as a result. This includes hundreds of children.
Palestinians denied civil rights (HRW) including Military Court (B’TSelem)
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel (wiki)
Children are jailed and abused in Israeli prisons (Save The Children)
Torture and Abuse in Interrogations (B’TSelem)
Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy (NPR)
The point is the cruelty.
To justify and legitimise what they’re doing. If someone is a member of Hamas, in the eyes of the world they’re a terrorist and therefore not human, not entitled to rights, etc. They can be tortured, killed etc and noone cares.
This is why Trump is going after ‘Hamas supporters’, not Palestinian supporters.
many reaons. two I can think of
1- either killing or terrorising/traumatizing everyone so that they leave their country so that settlers can overtake more easily
2- creating international casus belli for bombing hospitals
The point is they need to make terrorists to justify self defense to make more terrorists to take more land.
I’m always really surprised more people don’t post this stuff in conservative dominated spaces.
They’re not monsters. Aside from the trolls and bots that are paid to try to sway them to be. Also the under 20 year olds that are edge Lords.
I think it’s legit to get discussions and to challenge their core beliefs honestly. I do it. Some get through, sometimes I get banned. But I’m surprised more people don’t go out and do similar
Most moderators of conservative spaces actively remove this type of news. If you manage to find a conservative space allowing this kind of stuff by all means do post it there.
I see your comment here, have you considered posting your articles on !world@quokk.au as well?
That’s kind of my point though. There’s like 15 moderators maybe and those moderators likely moderate a measly 1500 other sites and forums and twitch hot tub chats. They can only do so much before they have to either hammer down and prove they are not free speech or they let some past.
Plus this is saying that you’re posting honestly. Legit news that is to drive discussion and not to just rub a dog’s nose in it’s own shit.
Would be great to go back to the days when we’re all mingled. I honestly hate a lot of spaces now because there filled with people who are too out there left or right. It’s boring, it’s predictable and lacks almost no insight into any of these issues. It’s all just rhetoric and cawing
Have you tried? Your fantasy depiction of unfortunate misguided Nazis does not meet up with reality.
I do. I’m saying I’m surprised I don’t see more. It happens with spaces on the left all the time too.
It’s crazy how in the last ten years we have allowed moderation to drive us into separate corners. A time out was maybe a good idea. But we should still be working to merge back into a single Internet.
And fuck off with the ‘they’re are all Nazis’ shit. That’s the same bullshit that made MAGA go off the rails.
I know on Reddit that r/conservative had a bit of a meltdown because their users started having honest takes like “people should be held accountable for Intel leak”
They have this term “my fellow conservatives” that was clearly bots trying to suppress anyone from voicing dissent. Surprisingly lots of down votes for it. Just saying maybe there’s a middle ground more than people think.
And fuck off with the ‘they’re are all Nazis’ shit
Nah. They’re sitting at the Nazi table, until they willingly walk away: they’re Nazis. If they don’t like hearing it they can off themselves or leave the Nazi table, either one is fine
You can’t “leave the Nazi table” if there’s no actual Nazi table. Take Ukraine, for example: think of the Azov Brigade. It doesn’t’t mean the entire Ukrainian population or military is made up of Nazi just because they’re tolerated.
It’s a fallacy to judge the whole based on an extreme subset. Just because there are far-right elements within a group doesn’t mean everyone in that group shares those beliefs.
Now, I’m not denying that some people are too comfortable with far-right ideologies within their ranks. That’s a real issue. But I also know many who clearly don’t align with that. So, while it’s valid to call out Nazi ideology when it appears, labeling people or groups as Nazis indiscriminately just weakens the argument.
Instead of using “Nazi” as a blunt instrument, we should confront the actual behavior when it happens and hold people accountable for it. That approach is far more likely to lead to real consequences and dialogue, rather than being written off as exaggeration or political posturing.
if there’s no actual Nazi table
So you’re blind or stupid? If you think the Nazi table doesn’t exist, let alone isn’t literally in charge right now then it’s one or the other
You can’t dismiss someone as a Nazi in this political climate. That’s like turning your back on a leaky pipe.
On the contrary, associating with the Nazi party that is actively disappearing innocent people off the street is turning your back on liberty and justice.
no, you need to convince the moderates not to be nazis.
It’s often said that there’s no difference between a Nazi and someone who sits at a table with a Nazi. But it’s not true – one of them can be persuaded back to reason.
It’s worth a shot, but by and large the more reasonable conservatives are generally no where near those communities. Certainly the moderation of those communities are fanatic about Trump. The conservatives that you might have hoped to call Trump on his stuff have calculated that they can’t afford to challenge Trump even if they personally think he is in the wrong. The ones that have calculated otherwise have been pushed out of the conservative community.
Keep in mind only a very small percentage of users post or write comments. Like less then 10%. And they’re nuts. We’re nuts for posting and commenting into the ether. But we’re even crazier for doing it in a place where everyone just agrees.
You’re not dealing with the person you’re commenting to. It’s about the 90% of others reading it.
It’s hard to reason seriously with online randos whose face you can’t see. You need extra rules to ensure civility and fact-based constructive reasoning. And even then there will be the odd vatnik agitator throwing potential constructive debate in the toilet.
It’s a popularity contest. Don’t need many rules beyond being funny. That’s the language. Anything else, you’re wasting your breath. Content is king. It’s how all our parents and grandmothers learned about COVID and everything else since then. They became addicted to memes and funny posts that had hidden political content
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That headline seems like a bit of a catch 22. If he says he’s Hamas, he becomes a “legitimate” target.
If you refuse to tell us you’re Hamas, we’ll be forced to murder your family.
If you tell us your Hamas, we’ll be obligated to murder your family.
Totally different scenarios.
Genociders gonna genocide.
Boy. Im so happy that religious nut bags are using my tax dollars to kill children. /s
Honestly, if there is a hell. A lot of the American Christians are going to burn in it.
There isn’t. The only hell they’ll ever see is the one we create.
“There’s no such thing as hell, but you can make it if you try.”
Makes a lot of sense that the IDF are the same people largely training cops in the US. Conflicting logic and orders so no matter what they get to shoot.
That’s the point.
I sorta get it, but sorta don’t… and I’m proud of that. I’m glad I’m not a torturer (or official) who can seamlessly rationalize cruelty.
These days feel like an ‘Are we the baddies?’ moment for the US
Always have been. Hitler said himself he was inspired by the American way of treating people of colour.
Plenty of evidence of that, one that I find particularly telling is the gasoline baths they would give Latin Americans.
