You know what’s even more fucked up? Europe, Australia and even Ukraine sent troops also to murder Iraqis and Afghans then bragged how they did things for the US
That certainly sounds like Europe, Australia, and Ukraine.
Ukraine is in Europe… Also, Europe is not a monolith, i. e. France was strongly against the invasion of Iraq to the point some crazy amis renamed fries as freedom fries. Jesus, that’s the equivalent to confusing arabs with Ottomans… That’s some double standards right there.
I’m aware that Ukraine is in Europe, I was responding to their comment in the format they made it in.
Our humanitarian intervention vs. their FULL-SCALE invasion
Our benevolent soldiers vs their satanic death squads
It’s not just FULL-SCALE, it is also ILLEGAL!
I really do think that liberals should take a hard look at themselves. They don’t flinch to call Russian soldiers orcs, and ascribe to their foreign policy a mindless bloodthirst. Do they think of US soldiers the same way? Or US foreign policy (even under someone like darling Obama)? Seriously: who is more “evil” Putin or Obama? By what measure?
At least the Donbass was experiencing genuine turmoil. The Obama regime had to invent a pretext for invasion whole cloth. And fifteen years later NATO hasn’t rebuilt even a single building in Libya. Mariupol looks a lot better than it did a year and a half ago.
Also works for them saying bomb them.
fuck those dirty Russians Ukraine should bomb all the cities
So you want them to hit civilians?
no I meant only places without people but still they need to retaliate
Then why say bomb the cities?
stop twisting my words when I want they’re the evil bad ones
Usually they just say there are no civilians in Russia and Ukraine killing ANY Russian is completely justified. Not the other way around though.
Also parallels their thoughts on Israel vs Palestine. Israel can kill any Palestinian and be “self defense” but when it comes to Israelis suddenly they care about the civilian distinction.
https://lemmy.world/comment/21824437
They don’t even go that far to distinguish the difference from my experience. Just go I didn’t mean that but I’m just gonna blame you for reading the words I used
(paraphrased) Murdering civilians is what Russia does. Why are you suggesting Ukraine do it?
It’s the only thing Russia will understand.
Later: “Noooo, I never said that Ukraine should murder civilians!”
Later: "Noooo, I never said that Ukraine should murder civilians
how dare you put words in my mouth dirty mler. I totally meant they should ignore civilians when saying it was the only thing Russia would understand
Amazing the overlap with the ones saying usa just needs more dems in congress to fix everything
One of my favorite kind of lemmitors on the fediverse is the “how dare you read the things I wrote” kind, where they start backpedaling only after getting massive backlash and then expect people to automatically believe their “clarifications” are sincere.
Even better when it’s also about something they do that with AND have no idea what they are talking about, cough that banjo guy and minimum wage|ACA being Romneycare|anything political
It’s incredibly interesting how, according to western media, all the ukrainian attacks on russian infrastructure never cause any deaths but russian attacks always cause deaths every time.
Who’s out here saying Ukraine should bomb “all the cities”? Most people from the first frame of OP would also be saying stop the bombing, not bomb more. E.g. stop the bombing of Palestine etc.
here’s one I ran into just last week, someone claiming to have been unfairly modded on .ml, when they had received a temp ban because they were actually advocating for collective punishment of russian civilians “because it’s the only thing that Russia will understand”:
Murdering civilians is what Russia does.
Which side made a post stamp out of blowing up a family car with kids onboard >_>
To echo divas post where the user could not comprehend how them saying Ukraine should bomb Russian cities because it’s the only way Russians will understand was frowned upon.
https://lemmy.ml/post/42340425/23621958
Then what asked to clarify said stop putting words in my mouth
Stop knocking over their straw man! They worked so hard to prop it up.
when hamas does it it’s genocidal intent, when ukraine/israel do it is self-defence.
Calling for Russians to shoot Putin while condemining “political violins” when Trump got shot will never not be funny.
ukros fully support the shitrahell genociders
“fully understands the core of international politics” lol
bit timid. I would have gone for
“intimately fathoms the very essence of international politics”
flip on the x-axis
You seem confused if you think supporting Russia and Palestine makes you anti-war/pacifist and supporting Russia and Israel makes you America’s laptop.
Last time I checked supporting Russia and Israel doesn’t make you anti-war/pacifist. And supporting Russia hardly makes you America’s lapdog
Upper right is similar to lower left - inconsistent values and inconsistent ideology. Pure hypocrisy. Dogs of US vs Dogs of Russia.
Supporting the liberation of Donetsk and Luhansk from the Banderite government they have been trying to secede from for a decade is a good thing, and that’s why the CPRF supports the Russian nationalists in the war. Had the west not supported a far-right coup back in 2014, it’s likely the war never would have happened.
Honestly can’t tell if it’s satire
Then you might not be very knowledgeable on the topic, lol
Fascist coup? Donetsk and Luhansk?
8 years of war?The average westoid never heard of that.
Can’t make it too complicated for the simpletons.
It all started when the RuZZian Putler invaded innocent ukraine for no reason, just like the conflict in Palestine started on oct 7 and nothing happened before that.
Nope, why would it be?
Redditor npc response #912
As if Redditors even have enough canned responses to reach 912. I wish they had that much veriaty
Supporting Palestine makes you a dog of Russia? Sounds like you don’t fully understand the core of international geopolitics
I would love to hear you try to explain how the Russian Federation somehow gained as many sympathizers virtually overnight as the US empire did through decades of world-spanning regime change, propaganda networks and bribery
Do you actually believe it’s inconsistent? Because it’s really quite straightforward: The US-centered capitalist empire must be stopped, and it’s genocidal proxies need to be eliminated, for the survival of the human race.
Bottom line. Thank you.
Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
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only one of these countries is imperialist.
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only one of these countries is a waning world hegemon with it’s boot on the neck of the planet and 900 military bases worldwide.
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the other has been forced into a position of fighting and weakening the hegemon, and therefore warrants critical support. This is why Africa, China and and most of the middle east support Russia in this war: every NATO tank and drone destroyed in Ukraine is one less to menace people elsewhere, one less to enforce murderous sanctions and austerity. The logic is very simple if you understand cause, effect and scale.
- Of course, because Belarus, Wagner group in Africa, Caucasus, are all humanitarian efforts
- True, but Spain was still imperialistic despite England being more successful. Success doesn’t excuse actions and ideology.
- Now who doesn’t really understand world politics?
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
I don’t think you know what imperialism means. Russia can and is bad without being imperialist. They may have imperial ambitions but that’s irrelevant to the now where they do not have the capacity to be imperialist. I wish people would stop trying to dilute the meaning of imperialism to just mean country doing war or big country doing thing I don’t like.
Imperialism is when a country fights another country and authoritarianism is when any government, especially a non-white one, does anything I don’t like.
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What are Wagner doing in Africa? Guarding mines and shit. What was Azov doing in Eastern Uktaine before Russia stopped them? Slaughtering 8,000 people with the blessing of the nazi coup government.
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Spain being imperialist (imperialistic is not a word) doesn’t make, for example, Morocco imperialist. You seem to think I’m saying Russia is a lesser imperial power. You are wrong: Russia is not an imperial power at all.
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You, emphatically
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
Oh, the US/NATO military venture designed to sieze control of a country’s resources by manufacturing a conflict with a government headed by a guy we put there in the first place?
Yeah, imagine defending something like that. If this was 2002 your gullible ass would be calling me a Saddam Lover. But of course, now that we’ve already fucked up Iraq, that war can join the list of US crimes that liberals were definitely, totally for realsies always against from the beginning. You people are as craven as you are predictable. Always opposing every war after it’s too late and supporting every war when it actually matters.
In 5 years or so when we get 9/11 2: This Time it’s Ukranian, you’ll say"Everyone knew that starting the Ukraine War was a bad and criminal idea, but this time it’s different! This time we need to support (a puppet government in the Philippines doing ethnic cleansing against Chinese people or something) against big, evil, fascist Gyna, who attacked for no reason! Democracy itself is on the line!" Over and over every few years, never learning, until we’re all dead.
My gullible ass is old enough to actually have been out in the street protesting against US/NATO and the invasion of Iraq back in 2002. You’re defending Putin’s war as if it’s justifiable by Azov or by Euromaidan. And arresting and making Tymoshenko a political prisoner or breaking the Budapest Memorandum is of course all reasonable, right?
Btw, imperialistic: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialistic
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Nah-uh
Both, both is good
It isn’t “fuck the [imperialist/authoritarian nation] government and its enforcers” for most people?
Russia isn’t imperialist. Imperialism isn’t when invasion or when big country is bad
Authoritarian is a useless pejorative as every nation that has been or currently is is “authoritarian”.
How do you define imperialism if invading other countries with the same explicit intent to annex them isn’t it?
imperialism is when war
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch01.htm
Russia has no colonies nor neocolonies, and doesn’t run their economy based on export of capital and plundering the surplus value of the global south, like the US and EU do.
Imperialism is characterized by the following:
-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.
-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.
-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.
-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.
-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.
-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.
The global north, the US and Europe included, uses this export of capital to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. It also engages in unequal exchange, where the global south is prevented from moving up the value chain in production, allowing the global north to charge monopoly prices for commodities produced in the same labor hours. Russia does not do this, it has a paltry sum of the world’s finance capital, and this is proven by just how low their nominal GDP is compared to their GDP adjusted to PPP.
If you pay attention to what Russia does internally and externally, Russia fulfills every one of those requirements except the last one (because they can’t, but they would be very happy too)
Nope, not really. Let’s see:
-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.
Somewhat true domestically, Russia has many monopolies as a holdover from the socialist system. However, internationally, this isn’t true at all, only 4 of the top 100 companies in the world are Russian. Considering having monopolies on the world stage is necessary for imperialism, this is false for Russia.
-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.
Similar to the first one, somewhat true domestically, but internationally Russia only has one of the top 100 banks. Same as the first, this is therefore false.
-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.
Russia primarily exports raw materials and resources, so no, not at a significant scale. There’s more capital flight than export.
-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.
Again, Russia has no international monopolies, the closest is that they can make a lot of nuclear reactors. No.
-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.
No neocolonialism is going on. Russia is annexing the 4 oblasts, but these are not colonies for Russia.
-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.
Russia has no colonies nor neocolonies, no “territory” to claim.
Overall, Russia likely would be imperialist if it was financially more developed and capable of imperialism, but it can’t because it isn’t.
One of the reasons for this war was that the Russian Federation did not want NATO weapons and forces on their permanent border. If they were to annex Ukraine, they would have NATO weapons and forces on their permanent border. I understand why this narrative that they want to has spread, because it’s an easy to understand “bad guy” thing that makes it simple to frame this war as some kind of random medieval war of conquest, but when you think about it for five minutes, annexing Ukraine would go completely against their goal, which is to either dissuade the coup government from it’s NATO ambitions (now irrelevant) or, if they wont agree to a peace treaty, establish a buffer zone in the form of a Ukranian rump state. In no scenario does a full annexation serve their interests, and the pragmatic thing from their perspective is to let the basket case that Ukraine has become be Europe’s peoblem.
Cowbee means economic imperialism - using the resources / wealth of another country for yourself. So invading another country would not, by itself, be imperialism.
I think this definition is a bit reductionist, but it’s a good starting point to ask ‘is this war for profit or some other reason?’.
I was saying BOOligarchs
what? no one reasonable is saying all russians are bad or all americans are bad. being born in a country does not automatically make you a fan of what their military does, that’s just racist
I have seen like two dozen outspoken liberals on this very site refer to Russian people writ large as orcs, and the Russian language as orcish
Or literally call for collective punishment https://lemmy.ml/comment/23813202
no one reasonable
I also have yet to see a single reasonable person call this behavior out without immediately being accused of being a paid Russian actor tankie chinese bot. The “orcs” shit has mainstream acceptance in liberal instances. Only leftists object to it, while liberals defend it.
I don’t think you know what racist means.
Splitting hairs. If you think a group of people are intrinsically worse than others, you are effectively racist.
We can come up with new names, but ultimately it’s all the same. If you think racism means black vs white then your understanding is kindergarten level.
If you prefer, we can use the term bigoted. That term also covers other intrinsic groups like trans, gay and disabled people among others.
I think that Americans, as a group of people, are intrinsically worse than all other people yes. Americans, as a group of people, paid for and enacted a campaign that overthrew the democracy in the country where my dad is from and invaded the country my mom is from and killed a million people including my extended relatives.
So yeah, fuck Americans. Death to America. Cry more about it. Maybe if you as a group did fuck all about it I’d feel different but you don’t you just sit here judging others as if you aren’t the worst people on earth and the global villains.
When a country does war crimes, the entirety of its populace is not to blame, the systems, power structures and people in charge are.
Most people in a country are not for wars or other attacking other countries. This is true for America and Russia alike, to the best of my knowledge (which granted, is anecdotal).
More people should be engaged in activism and should push back against the inhumane actions of their state, and people should be less gullible to the promises of their leaders.
Both America and Russia are overdue for major reform. Their systems are broken and many of their people brainwashed. Wishing harm on them does not help and imo is not a constructive approach. If anything, hate just begets more hate, making things worse.
If you are going to have hate, it should be more focused on the people in power.
The funny thing about “hate begets more hate” is that the user you’re replying to has a good reason to feel hate, and the racist Americans on the other side of that equation don’t. And yet, between those two groups, whose hate results in millions of people dying through sanctions and warfare?
The problem with the idea of “racism” against Americans, or even hatred against Americans being problematic, is that there’s no power structure behind it that makes it real. You’re essentially policing the tone of victims here and acting like their anger at what was done to them is equivalent to the very real wrongdoing they are reacting to.
Thank you for expressing that so eloquently
Thanks. This type of thing is something I see a lot on the fediverse and it bothers me.
Removed by mod
Most compassionate .world user.
Mask off speedrun
You’re really proving him wrong there. /s
If they were anything like you, they probably deserved it.
- Locate your avatar in the top right of the screen and select “Settings”
- Select “Delete Account”
- Enter your password and select “Delete”
Fine, it’s discriminating against people based on national origin. Whatever you call it it’s stupid
I think destroying my family is worse. Death to America.
Do you think every Russian or every American is just able to leave the country as soon as they realize the awful things their government is doing? People don’t choose where to be born. Whether I was going to be Swiss or American was a decision made before I was born that if I had any say in would probably have gone the other way
I am really not interested in your excuses, when you are indiscriminately killing millions of people with economic warfare. I hate you because of these excuses. Do something about it.
Right. Not wishing death to you personally or your community or etc etc. But your country has no right to exist in its current form, and people projecting their extremely valid grievances on all of you will continue to be a problem until you all organize and change or replace the government. We constantly meet people from your country defending our nations being butchered in the name of democracy™, most people still defend the army and veterans, we have the right to be really angry, and not all of us have the patience to treat you all with silk gloves.
Removed by mod
Sounds like you deserve worse
“Racist” what the fuck man. World’s smartest american just dropped.
No, please, we need liberation. Our government has been a problem for a long time, just that neo-liberals are getting scared.
what kind of natural reserves do you guys have ?
Oil, non-rare earth elements and rare earth elements.
Liberation, Libya or Syria style?
Removed by mod
@usamemes
How people see the US as “the good guys” is beyond me. The only thing they had going was defending the rules based global order but that is now becoming less relevant in favor of power politics.
The “rules based global order” has really just been the institution by which the US Empire solidified their hegemony, that’s the only reason they “defended” it.
From their inception the “rules based” global order and international “law” were simply shields for the imperial cores worst excesses and sticks to beat states that refused to submit. There was no good in defending them they were simply more tools of imperialism.
IDK how you were so ignorant on what the rules based order was despite its obvious misuse for decades but you should look at what Carney said recently.
Spilling the beans because he is upset with his masters.The “rules based global order” was always a bullshit farce: just a term meant to invoke the legitimacy of actual international law without any implication that the US and it’s allies would stop acting like lawless thugs.
Yeah, the global hegemon can always do a “rules for thee, not for me” thing. It’s like trying to fine a king for a parking violation.
Like objectively, as an American, America has(more like had) great PR but has been a horribly violent imperialist nation for ages. The horrors they’ve exported have destabilized several nations for baseless power grabs and war profiteering.
I’m not saying Americans as a whole but the US government and the forces that actually drive it. Money and power has corrupted this nation and it is evil at its core. The tenuous peace that has existed for the past few decades is propped up but fraud and military excess. It’s not good for this planet as a whole. The genocidal history of America has been white washed and glossed over. What’s they’ve don’t to south America, the middle east, and south east Asia is unforgivable kind of shit man.
They aren’t the good guys, they’re the “victors” who have written history in their favor.
