The Great Filter is the idea that, in the development of life from the earliest stages of abiogenesis to reaching the highest levels of development on the Kardashev scale, there is a barrier to development that makes detectable extraterrestrial life exceedingly rare. The Great Filter is one possible resolution of the Fermi paradox.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter
The Fermi paradox is the discrepancy between the lack of conclusive evidence of advanced extraterrestrial life and the apparently high likelihood of its existence. As a 2015 article put it, “If life is so easy, someone from somewhere must have come calling by now.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
Personally I think it’s photosynthesis. Life itself developed and spread but photosynthesis started an inevitable chain of ever-greater and more-efficient life. I think a random chain of mutations that turns carbon-based proto-life into something that can harvest light energy is wildly unlikely, even after the wildly unlikely event of life beginning in the first place.
I have no data to back that up, just a guess.
Sadly it may be the speed of light.
All these intelligent species are simply trapped in their own solar systems for all eternity by an unbreakable natural law.
But surely generational ships would get us over that?
Not really, no. Generational ships might make colonizing the nearest star systems possible, but even colonizing our own galaxy would require some kind of suspended animation. The milky way is between 100,000-200,000 light years in diameter so even at the speed of light, you’re looking at a travel time that is ~33-66% of the time that humanity has even existed(homo sapiens are currently estimated to have become a distinct species 200,000-300,000 years ago)… just to go to ONE star system out of the hundreds of BILLIONS that exist in our galaxy. You’re gonna need generational ships so self-sustaining and capable that the generation that actually arrives at the destination will have long forgotten the point of the trip and might not want to leave the comfort of the ship.
Still, colonizing our own galaxy is at least theoretically possible, given enough time. The real filter is just how unimaginably large the universe is. The vast, VAST majority of the observable universe is FOREVER out of our reach, as it is expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. Then there’s the unobservable universe, which could literally be infinitely bigger than the observable universe for all we actually know.
That’s why faster than light travel is the holy grail. Without it, we’re just kind of stuck.
Imagine if wormholes had zero constraints on the physical location of the other side of the wormhole though. We could open a portal to OUTSIDE the observable universe. What a mindfuck. We might even find a false vacuum decay racing towards us at the speed light, or regions of space that are contracting instead of expanding, or initiate a new big bang by opening a wormhole to an area of space where that hasn’t happened…we could travel to a point where we can watch the milky way get formed, since the light of its formation is just reaching that region of space. If it turns out the heat death of the universe is just a local phenomenon, we could continue expanding forever beyond it. World without end.
Generational ships wouldn’t have to reach the edge of the galaxy, just the next planetary system. There’s no reason civilization needs to remain centered on Earth, either. Think of it as a wave traveling outward, where it eventually reaches the edge, by many smaller hops. It will also eventually reach earth, where they might wonder at signs of a prehistoric civilization. Actually, think of it like the Middle East, where empires rise and fall, crusades and jihads burst through, religions rise out of nowhere, people speak many different languages. A galactic civilization could be dynamic and ever changing, distance can make us strangers to each other, the fate of any planet matter only to its inhabitants and neighbors
Sure, that’s an option. It doesn’t really change my overall point though that anything beyond galactic colonization is unrealistic on any time scale. Our next nearest neighbor, the Andromeda Galaxy, is over 2.5 MILLION light years away, over 10 times farther than my “crossing the milky way” example, with nothing in-between to make a pit stop if needed, you have to cross the true void of space to get there.
And that’s just to get the next nearest galaxy. Current estimates suggest the observable universe contains 2 TRILLION galaxies.
True, you’re not getting to the next galaxy. However within the galaxy, your generation ships only need to work for a century or two per voyage. That’s at least conceivable
Until we figure out how that is possible outside of theory, it is just that. We have no plans that address actually keeping a spaceship working on such a timescale, and keeping the crew alive on top of it.
Considering we haven’t seen any generational alien ships visit, it seems like nobody else has figured it out yet, either.
No. At best maybe a few reach the nearest inhabitable solar system.
AFAIK there is no known energy source that would keep a generation ship powered for the duration of an interstellar flight.
The person to whom you responded is half right. The speed of light is half of the barrier to interstellar travel. Entropy is the other half.
Would you need a power source? If you aim your ship correctly, then put everything alive into cryo, the ship could go completely dark, vent all heat and become a frozen rock. Then after [very long time] the ship enters the vicinity of a different star and can be reactivated and unfrozen using solar energy. You dont need energy to maintain cryo if the whole ship is at 1° kelvin.
(Of course that relies on cryo sleep being possible)
Or synthetic life. (Robots)
Only if they can be turned off (same as the cryo sleep). The whole ship either has to have enough energy to last potentially 100000 years (no theoretical power source exists like that) or enter a state of 0 energy consumption. Solar/radiation collectors dont work if you are to far from a star. Synthetic life still needs energy
The whole ship either has to have enough energy to last potentially 100000 years.
Well, that depends on how far you’re going. If you pick a nice close target, let’s say 3 light years away, you can potentially get there pretty quickly. With fusion propulsion systems you could make the trip is something like 70 years, coasting most of the way. I’d need to check the math to get exact numbers, but I recall fusion allowing for pretty reasonable trip times.
But if you can survive for hundreds or thousands of years, then solar sails become an option. Then it becomes a materials science problem of how thin can you make a sail that will still hold together. The greater the sail to payload ratio, the faster you go.
Also, you’d need to know for certain that the planet you’re sending your generation ship to is habitable for your species. While this may be technologically trivial for a society that can build a functional generation ship, the timescales for such projects (literally hundreds or even thousands of years from the launch of the probe to the yes/no signal) makes it extremely difficult to actually organise.
Lol we get to the planet and find it was obliterated by a gamma ray burst 50 years ago
Or just send a lot of ships and hope one or two find something good.
That and you won’t even know if the destination civilization is still there by the time you arrive.
just reverse entropy
INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER
import fuckit && !!
Plus isn’t the rate of expansion of the universe increasing? So at some point, even going at light speed, your destination will recede faster than you can travel.
Not really. Galaxies are pretty stable, stars orbit around the central black hole in the galaxy. You can absolutely travel between stars in the same galaxy, even if it takes a thousand years.
Information can travel at light speed. So, I think there’s more to it personally
There doesn’t need to be more to it than that. The observable universe is over 93 billion light years in diameter. That means even at the speed of light, it would take over 6.5x longer than the universe has even existed for anything to cross that distance… except the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, so actually you need to go significantly faster than light to make it across. FTL is, sadly, still firmly in the realm of science fiction, so to the best of our current knowledge most of the universe is permanently inaccessible.
Light speed is very slow
That is very sad.
I think that the great filter/fermi paradox is a combination of two facts,
- Our entire radio output (the only example we have to go by) is pitiful compared to the sun, like a candle in front of a flood light, you’ll only be able to see it so far before it’s completely drowned out. After a few dozen light years our radio output is less than the margin of error of a stars detectable radio output.
- As a civilization advances it must reduce radio leakage. As data gets more important, it gets more important that you’re not wasting energy moving it around. Narrow beamed radio transmission becomes the norm and even less radio signals escape the system than when radio was messy and overpowered.
They’re not missing or gone, they’ve just moved beyond messy radio signals. Even we tightened up our radio emissions in a little over a century. Most of what we watch or listen to comes to us via fiber, cable, or short range transmissions like cell phone towers and Wi-Fi.
Accidentally replied instead of editing to fix a mistake. Disregard comment.
Boy, Lemmy sucks donkey dick. For every one legitimate answer there are two or three edgelord answers like “capitalism” and “the internet”.
Here’s an answer that hasn’t come up yet: cooperation among mono cellular organisms. I don’t mean the development of polyp analogues or colonies of single celled organisms; I mean getting down to mitochondria. Brace for wild oversimplification.
Before mitochondria, life had a hard time creating enough energy to do much more than barely stay alive. The current line of thinking is that one organism ate another and didn’t digest it. The two organisms worked symbiotically, one handled energy production and the other handled getting food and staying alive.
Just about every living thing utilizes mitochondria and if the current idea that mitochondria were actually symbiotic organisms is true, that means that what was likely a chance “sparing” of prey is the underpinning of all complex life.
The odds of that happening are ridiculously low. There could be simple life in tons of places even within our own star system, but if the mitochondria-like symbiotic capture never happens for those extraterrestrial organisms, then complex life is probably unlikely to develop.
Edgelord teenagers are a plague on lemmy
A - fucking - men
Still not as bad as reddit though
Good answer. This seemed relevant enough to share, it’s certainly interesting. https://newatlas.com/biology/life-merger-evolution-symbiosis-organelle/
your paragraphs complaining about it are a lot more annoying than the people who might not be being totally serious on the internet for a minute.
If by “paragraphs” you mean two sentences, sure.
If you’d bothered to read past those two sentences you’d see that I was making an offhand comment before answering the question.
nah if you open up just insulting all the people around you, I don’t owe you reading the rest of your post.
Case in point for Lemmy being a shit hole.
Maybe cooperation is hard wired just like competition. It might be less likely but hardly impossible.
I’d hardly describe it that way. It took untold trillions of predator/prey interactions over the hundreds of millions of years that single celled life existed for it to happen. That’s more or less brute forcing the problem and it took geologic timescales to happen.
If you ask me to point at a hurdle stopping civilizations from developing that looks awfully reasonable.
Ultimately we don’t know much about that era of time, but I suspect it was less like fumbling around for millions of years looking for a light switch, and more like the gradual warming of the planet with warmer and cooler seasons/years.
Iirc at least one of the other things related to development of eukaryotes was that atmospheric oxygen had to first be generated by early cyanobacteria.
So maybe that proverbial light switch was being flipped millions of times through random encounters but only became more viable after the voltage (atmospheric oxygen levels) became high enough. Maybe that’s the reason it took hundreds of millions of years, because transforming by bacteria just takes that long.
We just don’t know unfortunately. However, we DO know about species getting wiped out by asteroids or human cultures getting wiped out by disease or conflict with superior cultures. Any of these filters seems more of a hurdle to me than the development of eukaryotes.
My favorite filter is the amount of phosphorous in the universe. Earth has an unusually high amount, and it’s vital for life. I like this one, because as more stars die, the amount of phosphorous goes up, implying we won’t be alone forever.
Anyway, look up “Issac Arthur” on YouTube for HOURS of content about the Fermi paradox and potential great filters.
I’m gonna add to this by saying phosphorus may be my favorite, but I think the most likely filter is just time, twice.
Do you know how unlikely it is that earth has been habitable for so long? Do you know how long life was single-celled? One of the theories for how advanced (eukaryotic) cells formed was the combination of at least three different branches of life into the same cell! Archaea (cell wall), bacteria (mitochondria/chloroplasts), and viruses (nucleus). Do you know how unlikely that sounds? Do you know how long it would take for that to happen randomly? Most planets probably aren’t even habitable for that long. Once we became eukaryotic, we started progressing much faster.
Then, keep in mind, the life has to continue to exist for billions of more years while it waits for the advanced life to happen again within the same section of the galaxy. So, time is two filters - both behind us and in front of us.
Thanks, I’ll check it out!
Throwing in another similar YouTube suggestion of John Michael Godier
It may very well be republicans
Honesty, I don’t think that there is a Great Filter. The Fermi Paradox strikes me as not very well-reasoned. A whole hell of a lot of things would have to go exactly right for civilizations to make contact, rather than it being the default assumption. There are lots of filters, not just one Great one.
But the closest to a Great Filter is that space is really, really. stupendously big. The chances of even detecting each other across such distances is vanishingly small, much less traversing them. Add in the difficulty of jumping the metabolic energy gap to become complex life, and that could reduce the density of civilizations down to a level that they’re just not close enough to each other in spacetime to admit even the possibility of contact. And we’re hanging our hat on some highly-speculative concepts like alien mega-structures harnessing whole solar systems to allow detection.
I think a lot of persnickety, smaller filters combine to make interstellar contact between civilizations against long odds. Perhaps the best we’ll get is spectral signatures from distant planets that are almost-conclusive proof of some sort of life.
I think you’re probably closest. There aren’t “filters” so much as we live in a universe that can only support life on a highly contingent basis, entirely by accident, at random intervals. It’s filters all the way down, really. None of us are getting out alive, might as well enjoy it while it lasts.
I think at some point, almost certainly not in our lifetimes, we’ll detect the spectroscopic signatures of a planet that has an atmospheric makeup that HAS to be from life, but with no detectable signs of any civilization. Just nonsentient life. And we may never be able to get there.
Howabout a reasonably advanced civilization destroying itself and its homeworld after exploiting and then running out of petroleum?
Oil has a bad reputation but how lucky we are to have it. How does a civilization on a planet without hydrocarbons make the leap to a technological species?
It’s not impossible, but it’s got to be a lot harder.
Kelp farms? Domesticated bamboo? We need large areas of land to grow food anyway, we just skipped the charcoal agriculture step. Lathes and the three plate method are the real heroes of industry any way.
A slower ascension into the computing age could mean a more stable set of cultures and a more uniform global situation to avoid anthropogenic filters. Bright candles and all that.
I think it’s a fair thought that any form of life doesn’t perfectly recycle their resources and all forms of life give off waste for other life to utilize. That said, a reasonably advanced civilization might just inevitably grow to the size where the waste they put off makes their planet unlivable for them before they can take action to control it.
For us, it’s carbon dioxide.
Don’t forget plastics and pesticides! Those get everywhere, and many are bioavailable by design.
seriously though, I think life on other planets probably just usually evolves underground, so even if they develop some sort of intelligence they’re not looking up at the sky so they have no motivation to explore beyond their atmosphere no matter how advanced they get.
there was a planet in The hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy universe that had thick cloud cover so that people never even conceived of an existence beyond their planet. when a spaceship crashed there, it never even occurred to them that it might have come from the sky
Even if you had a super intelligent species that can make Dyson spheres and travel at the speed of light the observable universe is beyond vast. I don’t know much about cosmology or our ability to detect light but given humans have only been looking into the sky for a couple centuries, not being able to see a thimble in the ocean seems like a non issue. I think if you scale the observable universe down to the size of earth the speed of light becomes 0.05 mph.
We’re currently in it. Failing to create a clean, renewable, and scalable energy source powerful enough to run a society that is ever increasing in both population and technology without destroying their only inhabited planet has got to be the most common great filter.
Asteroids strikes, super volcanoes, solar CMEs, and other planetary or cosmetic phenomena that exactly line up in both severity and timing are too rare IMO.
Every society that attempts to progress from Type 1 to Type 2 has to deal with energy production. Most will fail and they will either regress/stagnate or destroy themselves. Very few will successfully solve the energy problem before it is too late.
A filter for sure, but not a great one. Call me optimistic, but I don’t think that will set us back more than 10.000 years. If humanity can survive, society will re-emerge, and we are back here 2-3000 years into the future.
Is +5°C Earth a good place to be? No. Will the majority of humans die? Absolutely. Will the descendants get to try this society thing again? I believe so.
On a cosmic scale 10.000 years is just a setback, and cannot be considered a great filter.
Unfortunately we’ve pretty much used up all easily available resources. Anyone ‘starting over’ would have a much harder time getting the things they need to really get the ball rolling again.
When humans first discovered gold they practically only had to scoop it out of rivers. You’ll be hard pressed to find any streams with such appreciable production anywhere in the world today.
I think that is thinking a bit too narrow. A lot of the stuff we use today might just be our bronze to our successors iron - you can build an unstable society on either. And what we do use up today could still work if used more efficiently - we might not have enough rare metals to give everyone a smartphone in the post-post-apocalypse, but I could see us still launching satellites if only big governments had computers - because they did.
We’ve already discovered fission and photocells. We’re past the point of needing fossil fuels for a new civilization (or existing civilization). Fossil fuels are only hanging around for economic reasons.
Assuming that knowledge and resource locations are retained. Roman’s had great concrete. Took a long time to reestablish what Humans already had and mixing raw materials is not complicated.
After the Roman Empire, the use of burned lime and pozzolana was greatly reduced. Low kiln temperatures in the burning of lime, lack of pozzolana, and poor mixing all contributed to a decline in the quality of concrete and mortar
We need a Foundation project to restart society If we want to avoid this. Worst case solar cells becomes myth like Greek fire.
evidence of human existence has only gotten what, 150 lightyears out into space?
Eh. The amount of oxygen in out atmosphere is pretty much impossible by non-living processes alone iirc. Anyone who can do astro-spectroscopy can probably tell there’s life here, from thousands of light years away.
and if life is as abundant as we think, how are they going to tell the difference between intelligent and non-intelligent life
By the color of their hats /jk
Life is so rare, finding ANY life is worth investigation
that has nothing to do with why I asked that question lol. if you have to investigate every single one that shows signs of life, that would mean investigating a lot of worlds before you find any with intelligence.
Probably too optimistic and unhinged, but maybe a species advanced enough for interstellar travel, building mega structures etc. are advanced enough to ascend to a higher plane of existence or alternate dimensions or whatever. Maybe there’s some alternative to this reality that will be unlocked by advanced technology that made all advanced life prefer that, to here.
I also like this theory. In the Ian Banks Culture series civilizations that get advanced enough head off into the “sublime” they call it. Basically a higher level of existence. In my own more simple version, I’d figure VR and the biological/cyborg mix get so good the powerful can start living kind of forever, so they head for that substrate and don’t need big megastructures for anything, they just need computing power.
Yeah, it seems very possible that at one point, civilization will turn inward instead of outward. Why go through the time and effort to colonize the stars when you can just create a cyber-utopia? If you’re advanced enough, you could make it feel like an eternity while almost no time passes on the outside.
Sure, your planet might get destroyed by a cataclysmic event in the far future, but if you can make that feel like billions or trillions of years, who really cares?
That’s a really neat idea I’ve never heard before. Like, maybe our entire universe is analogous to the ocean floor sea-vents that life arose out of. Cold, and dead, and boring, and difficult. And one day we’ll discover how to ascend.
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I don’t think there is a single filter. My personal gut feeling however is that the jump to “specialised generalists” would be a major hurdle.
Early human civilizations are very prone to collapsing. A few bad years of rain, or an unexpected change of temperature would effectively destroy them. Making the jump from nomadic tribal to a civilisation capable of supporting the specialists needed for technology is apparently extremely fragile.
Earth also has an interesting curiosity. Our moon is extremely large, compared to earth. It also acts as a gyroscopic stabiliser. This keeps the earth from wobbling on its axis. Such a wobble would be devastating for a civilisation making the jump to technological. Even on earth, we are in a period of abnormal stability.
I suspect a good number of civilizations bottleneck at this jump. They might be capable of making the shift, but get knocked back down each time it starts to happen.
Earth also has an interesting curiosity. Our moon is extremely large, compared to earth. It also acts as a gyroscopic stabiliser. This keeps the earth from wobbling on its axis. Such a wobble would be devastating for a civilisation making the jump to technological. Even on earth, we are in a period of abnormal stability.
There seem to be so many coincidences that make our solar system unique that it’s really upsetting lol It’s like we are so perfect for stability because of things like Jupiter keeping the inner system “clean” of large impactors, our part of the galaxy being more “quiet” than typical as far as supernovae, stuff like that which makes it seem even less likely for life to exist anywhere else. :(
Life will almost certainly be fairly common, given the right conditions. On earth, it seems to have appeared not long after conditions made it possible. We either won the lottery on the first week, or the odds aren’t actually that bad.
The problem is, we can’t detect life right now. We can only see potential communicating civilisations. These are a lot rarer. We currently know of 1, humanity. That will change in the next few years. We have telescopes being designed/built capable of detecting the gasses in the atmosphere of an earth sized planet. While we won’t recognise all life types this way, a lot will show up in abnormal gasses, e.g. free oxygen. This should help bound the possibilities a lot.
Speaking of our moon, the fact that it’s roughly the same size as the sun as seen from earth and the fact that this is a complete coincidence blows my mind. Like there’s no reason for that to be the case. Total eclipses like ours (where you can see the corona) are very rare.
Even more so, the moon is slowly moving away from the earth. A couple of million years ago, it would have completely covered the sun. In a couple of million years, it will not fully cover the disc.
A million years is a long time for humanity, but a blink on the timescale of moons and stars. We didn’t just luck out with the moon’s large size, but also with the timing of our evolution.
That’s nuts. In two million years, humans will be sighing and saying wistfully “if I had a time machine, I’d want to go back to the time of the full eclipses, like 2024”
Time.
Is on my side
Yes it is
We have had Millions of years of (presumably) intelligent Dinosaurs on this planet, but only 200.000 years of mankind were enough to create Civilization IV, the best Strategy game and peak of life as we know it.
So clearly, Civilization™ is what sets us apart.
Jokes aside, the thing evolution on earth spend the most time on is getting from single celled life-forms to multicellular life (~2 billion years). If what earth life found difficult is difficult for all, multicellular collaboration is way harder than photosynthesis, which evolved roughly half a billion years after life formed.
Sort of fallacious to go from one case of time to happen and derive probability from it.
I’m no biologist but I don’t think any of our models of super early stuff are sophisticated enough to speculate on what stages are the most or least likely.
You are correct, but that doesn’t mean I can’t speculate about it.
The ability to do photosynthesis is widely distributed throughout the bacterial domain in six different phyla, with no apparent pattern of evolution., according to this random paper I found on the internet (I’m not a biologist either).
What I can glance is that photosynthesis has (probably) evolved independently 6 time in Bacteria and 3 times in Eukaryotes.
Plants evolved to photosynthesise after photosynthesising bacteria already existed for billions of years.
(But then we have to also acknowledge that multicellular life evolved like 25 times in Eukaryotes, and the Eukaryote - aka Mitochondria-“Powerhouse of the cell”-haver- is the real big step as it only happened once to our knowledge).
