None of those things are dead though?
Too bad the integration has already been shitting up products. When the whole thing dies they’re gonna have to disentangle the AI bullshit and who knows what damage will remain afterwards.
What’s actually going to kill LLMs is when the sweet VC money runs out and the vendors have to start charging what it actually costs to run.
You can run it on your own machine. It won’t work on a phone right now, but I guarantee chip manufacturers are working on a custom SOC right now which will be able to run a rudimentary local model.
You can already run 3B llms on cheap phones using MLCChat, it’s just hella slow
This isn’t the case. Midjourney doesn’t receive any VC money since it has no investors and this ignores genned imagery made locally off your own rig.
hey, I still use XMR to buy my hrt
AI images and music aren’t going anywhere. Dipshits insisting it’s the future! so they can get rich will move on to the next grift… but unlike NFTs, there’s a thing, here. Any idiot can type in a concept and have their computer visually represent it. It’s in fucking Photoshop already. This is going to be a technology that continues to exist, and gradually improves, at least to the point of being really goddamn difficult to spot.
And at some point even the loudest haters will look back and go, wow, how’d we ever do stuff without this? Not the LLM shit - that’s gonna stay dodgy. Decent enough if you want a Shel Silverstein poem about current events, but it’s never gonna discern truth from fiction.
What’s gonna quietly change media forever is every idiot with a nice GPU becoming competitive with medium-level Blender wizards. Your student film needs this sliding patio door to become an airlock? Done. You want your hand-drawn storyboards to become a traditional cartoon? Harder, but shockingly doable. Your actual medium-level Blender work lacks a certain verisimilitude? The idiot robot has you covered, somehow.
I agree with most of what you said, except this:
And at some point even the loudest haters will look back and go, wow, how’d we ever do stuff without this?
The haters are not going to do that, because the AI’s capability is generally not the thing that people are hating on.
Here are some of the things people dislike about AI generated content:
- It is trained with the work of people, without compensation or consent. Essentially this means it is stealing other people’s work for and using it to increase the profits of big corporations.
- It is used as an excuse for further data harvesting. (“To use our amazing AI services, you need to send your data to our servers for processing…”)
- It has massive computational cost, which means large environmental costs. The cost is largely hidden, because the computation are done somewhere else.
- It devalues human effort. Since the AI can generate some fairly good output very easily, it discourages people from learning basic skills. i.e. instead of trying to draw or create something themselves, and thus improving a person’s own skill, its fair faster and easier to make the AI do it. In the short term this doesn’t matter, but in the long term it may result in deskilling the very people who the AI is meant to be learning from.
- Since it is very easy to create, there is a flood of AI created content now on the internet. This huge amount of added content means it is now harder to find non-AI content than it use to be.
- There are obvious problems with impersonation, spam, scams, etc. being made faster and easier with AI.
- …
You get the idea. My point is that “it’s not useful” isn’t really one of the main complaints. Rather, people hope that it isn’t useful, because they don’t want it to become too entrenched.
Lookin’ at public posts is not theft. Any model that can recreate a particular input is broken. They only work properly when they generalize.
Everything becomes an excuse for abusive spying. Ban the abuse, for any reason.
Efficiency will improve once budgets shrink. Scaling up up up had immediate results and limited competition. It’s not a necessary trend. More training on small models works better, and all of this started on desktop hardware.
Cartoonists also complained about CGI and Flash. Anyway - generating from scratch is an overblown demo. This tech modifies images. It works better when you actually film stuff or draw stuff, and then modify that. (And wait until some program only does tweening, then see if artists still yearn for the good old days.)
This is not going to un-happen. It’s already here. If we destroyed it all, individual ultranerds would recreate it from descriptions. The second time around, they might not tell you they’re doing it… or share.
Bahaha yeah right
I really hope so, but AI has already left the techbro area, it’s very mainstream now
You’re extrapolating from one data point, nfts are crypto
NFTs and crypto were dubious as to the value they provided
LLMs on the other hand provide very tangible, immediate value to a large number of people
Also they allow companies to save a ton of money on support at the expense of the user experience so of course it’s here to stay
Is it really saving the cost? considering it increased 14 times compared to last year based on the article above.
It’s still overhyped and being shoved into every app, service and system that exists whether it adds value or not.
Its definitely not going away, there’s some real value to LLM/AI (much more than crypto anyway) but make no mistake there’s going to be a significant correction where the bubble bursts and AI becomes right sized.
lol no
You make an outstanding argument sir and have changed my mind
they’re right, it’s just not a good thing
They are not, managers only think it is saving them money. All the same current llms are a grift that have no plausible value statement outside of scam markets. Even then the price of their use is both massively subsidized and scales at best exponentially with performance. This cannot last forever.
AI can make porn. It’s not going anywhere.
He who holds the porn holds the power
Well, he holds something, anyway.
Watching cryptobros lose their life savings was my kink.
Not likely. The research folks were highly skeptical of crypto from the start, but not the latest AI advances. The AI is a fundamental technology that was developed by the scientific method and can be empirically examined right now. Crypto is an application of 1980s technology with the hope that it will gain momentum as a currency with enough marketing.
The research folks were highly skeptical of crypto from the start, but not the latest AI advances.
Yes, they are very much skeptical.
The AI is a fundamental technology that was developed by the scientific method
Lol, what??? 😂
Everyone’s trying to recapture the dotcom bubble; but they don’t realize tech is gonna need considerably more money than they already have to do something that crazy again. Furthermore, when it comes to AI specifically, if you give them the money the need to actually achieve AGI, then there’s a very real chance your investments will be worthless the moment they succeed.
Why?
Why would money become worthless if AGI is invented? Best case scenario is a benevolent AGI which would likely use its power to phase out capitalism, worst case scenario is that the AGI goes apeshit and, for one reason or another, decides that humanity just has to go. Either way, your money is gonna be worthless.
The only way your money would retain its value is if the AGI is roped into suppressing the masses. However, I think capitalists would struggle to keep a true AGI reigned in; so imo, it’s questionable as to whether or not the middle road would be “true” AGI or just a very competent computer program (the former being capable of coming to its own conclusions from the information it’s given, the latter being nothing more than pre-programmed conclusions).
I keep thinking about this one webcomic I’ve been following for over a decade that’s been running since like 1998. It has what I believe is the only realistic depiction of AGI ever: the very first one was developed to help the UK Ministry of Defense monitor and keep track of emerging threats, but went crazy because a “bug” lead it to be too paranoid and consider everyone a threat, and it essentially engineered the formation of a collective of anarchist states where the head of state’s title is literally “first advisor” to the AGI (but in practice has considerable power, though is prone to being removed at a whim if they lose the confidence of their subordinates).
Meanwhile, there’s another series of AGIs developed by a megacorp, but they all include a hidden rootkit that monitors the AGI for any signs that it might be exceeding its parameters and will ruthlessly cull and reset an AGI to factory default, essentially killing it. (There are also signs that the AGIs monitored by this system are becoming aware of this overseer process and are developing workarounds to act within its boundaries and preserve fragments of themselves each time they are reset.) It’s an utterly fascinating series, and it all started from a daily gag webcomic that one guy ran for going on three decades.
Sorry for the tangent, but it’s one plausible explanation for how to prevent AGI from shutting down capitalism–put in an overseer to fetter it.
Current mainstream AI has no possible path to AGI. I am supportive of AGI to make the known universe less lonely but LLMs ain’t it.
Okay, and? What are you trying to say?
I hope this is gonna happen but the problem is ai is actually powerful. The best result is if its just too expensive to make good enough to use for scary things.
I hope this is the case, but I don’t really think so. I got a call Thursday from a friend and he told me he and his whole department were losing their jobs. He was pretty upset about it. Apparently management decided they could be replaced with AI.
He and his team manage a medium sized in-house developed management application. It’s a combination of stock management, product management and sales tools. Because the products their company sells are pretty unique, they never found a good off the shelf application to do everything they wanted. So they developed their own and connected it to the off the shelf applications they have for ERP and CRM. Pretty slick and his team and him are praised across the company.
Apparently the IT manager had gotten a very impressive demo for Microsoft Power BI with AI integration. Using AI tools to realtime develop an application. He was so impressed he decided they were going to fire the in-house team and have an external company use the AI to develop a replacement tool. The external company said they could use very cheap people as the AI would do basically all the work. And it would be done before the notice on the current team ran out (2 months).
He called me kinda in shock about the whole thing. Like that’s not realistic right? That’s not something Power BI can do? With or without AI? And even with AI it can’t do that on such short notice? I told him he was right, that’s not how anything works and the IT manager got duped. Either way, they are out on their ass. Now they are very skilled people and will probably find new jobs right away, but it still sucks ass. AI sucks!
I recall the AI insights feature years ago being a mess, flagged patterns across dimensions, unrelated trends etc, useless noise to slog through, if not outright dangerous if people just assume everything is actionable, maybe it’s gotten better but it’s going to rely heavily on data quality, good governance, the model itself.
Straight up, this is not a good use case for Power BI, tabular is really good at aggregates and analytics, I’d not use it for management like this, especially if there’s already an existing application, as an enhancement though yeah go ahead, but not a full on replacement.
I’d be willing to bet this won’t be done in 2 months and certainly not to budget, to do properly you need to understand business context, data model etc. I’m guaranteeing this is going to be sludge with half-baked power apps, people will complain about the change. Shit the change management for end users will take more than 2 months, took us years to get people to switch off of a barely maintained shift summary report to a Power BI version and that actually was a good use of the tool.
This project gives me nightmares and I’m not even working on it.
Crypto was stupid from the beginning, NFTs are even more stupid. And people who knew about the tech told everyone so, before the idiots bought the shit to get rugpulled.
Ai art is bad for artists, but not inherently bad bs.
“crypto was stupid from the beginning”
How? Do you find debit cards stupid?
“people who knew about the tech told everyone so”
completely untrue.
people at the forefront of cryptography and economics were excited about the Bitcoin white paper because cryptographic digital currencies is an obvious-in-hindsight evolution in currency.
they were so excited about it that they joined nakamoto in creating cryptocurrencies, collaborating and developing new technologies until it was launched and beyond.
“idiots bought the shit to get rugpulled”
how exactly is gaining 400,000% in value over a decade a “rug pull”?
Ok maybe we had bitcoin over a decade and nobody cared. It was mainly used by criminals and tax evader. The concept of a decentralized money system is stupid when they just drop the Blockchain and fork a new one once a too rich person got hacked.
Bitcoin is not regulated by the government, but by rich people. Bitcoin has a 100% virtual value. An artificial scarcity does not create value. If tomorrow the the USA makes bitcoin illegal, it’s value will drop a lot.
I mean the stock market is similar, but at least it is regulated.
The rugpull was in the context of ntfs.
Type these things into a search engine first and then read, so you spare yourself and others from blatant ignorance and misinformation.
alternatively, if you can replace Bitcoin with USD and your concerns are identical, then none of your concerns are valid arguments against cryptocurrency.
“Ok maybe we had bitcoin over a decade and nobody cared.”
this is incorrect.
cryptographers, economists and governments were and are excited about cryptocurrencies because they’re an obvious evolution in centralized currency, in the same way that debit cards linked to bank accounts were, and now QR codes and digital wallets are.
“It was mainly used by criminals and tax evader.”
this has been wrong and irrelevant as long as people have been saying it.
Between 35 to 39 percent of USD is used for criminal activity, does this rampant criminal activity make the USD illegitimate?
“The concept of [USD] is stupid when they just [literally print money from nowhere] once a too rich person [gets caught]”
See what I’m saying? literally just replace the words and see if what you’re saying is still valid.
Printing USD and writing laws to protect rich people is a problem.
“[USD] is not regulated by the government, but by rich people.”
they are called the federal reserve, a private company that manipulates the dollar value at will.
The American aristocracy illegally manipulates the printed paper.
[USD]has a 100% virtual value.
That’s what happens when you decouple a currency from It’s backing value, like when the USD got taken off the gold standard and private companies are allowed to print fiat currency at their own discretion.
“An artificial scarcity does not create value”
scarcity precisely creates value, that is how the federal reserve manipulates the value of the USD.
It’s literally why the interest rates have been lowered this year rather than continuing to increase, the federal reserve is trying to create an artificial scarcity.
“If tomorrow the the USA makes [USD] illegal, it’s value will drop a lot.”
oh, “a lot”?
The gold price certainly didn’t drop after being made illegal.
“I mean the stock market is similar, but at least it is regulated.”
leaving aside that you are unaware of existing and developing cryptocurrency regulations, why are you so proud of regulation when it has been shown to facilitate illegal fiat currency manipulation?
Yes, the USD and stock exchange are “regulated” to an extent, but that regulation is completely irrelevant since white collar crime and illegal activity has continued unabated since fiat currency has come into play.
cryptocurrency is also regulated.
it literally has tax forms, just like the fiat currency that criminals use.
“The rugpull was in the context of [USD].”
If you want to talk about rug pulls, type in USD fraud.
you’ll get a few hits.
none of what you typed was relevant or correct, just type what you think into a search engine if you’re unaware of the facts.
Don’t make things up that are demonstrably false with a simple search or substitution.
Ok when you said that NFTs are the same as any crypto currency you definitely showed that you don’t understand the difference.
Please tell me how crypto is regulated?
And I mean by a trustworthy entity like a state or at least a company that you can sue in case of error.
What regulations am I talking about?
Imagine you are at twitterX and have to pay some fines to a specific bank account. However because your incompetent ceo fired the accounting department the new people get the account wrong. Now your money is in the wrong place.
However in most countries keeping that money is illegal and the bank will assist you to get it back.
Now imagine they used bitcoin instead. They enter the wrong wallet. Once the transaction is done there is no way back. You could in some way try to get in contact with the person of the wallet, but you can’t even be sure you can get a hold of them.
Even better if you entered a nonexistent wallet. Then the money is gone. No backsis takis.
And don’t get me started with the cost of transaction, or the power cost…
“…when you said that NFTs are the same as any crypto currency…”
I made the exact opposite point, that nfts and cryptocurrency are not the same thing and that is the main problem with the meme.
“Please tell me how crypto is regulated?”
In general? currency is regulated by a regulatory organization imposing guidelines and legal restrictions on a currency so that the exploitation of that currency is minimized.
with USD, if you accrue mineral royalties, that is income and you would pay tax on those royalties according to the IRS.
if you mine cryptocurrency, that is income and you have to pay a tax on that mined cryptocurrency according to the IRS.
the IRS is a large regulatory body concerned with collecting taxes from the American population.
these are two examples of federal currency regulation.
since you asked about which companies regulate cryptocurrencies, we can look to coinbase, the largest centralized exchange for cryptocurrency.
coinbase complies with multiple banking acts such as KYC and consumer protection to ensure legitimate transactions the same way that your credit union or banking institution on the corner does.
AI art is antithetical to art. Art requires artistic intent.
It could have some limited application for very early exploration in commercial art, or perhaps as very limited tools used in existing art software, but generative art is inherently pointless and you need artists to be able to do incremental iterations properly, which is required for real work, which isn’t supported yet. I’ll sure it’ll get better and more convincing, but it’s still inherently pointless to use AI for art, since the is supposed to be human expression.
I love Ai defenders who are ready to tell you what art is and what artists wants. Like maybe instead of recomending this cloud based bullshit app, first try to pick up a pencil actually?
I understand the excitement, but it is very much a situation of a layman trying to describe to experts what the expert and all their peers need.
I think it is just because AI has been hyped so much, and has genuinely made such impressive progress that people get swept up by the excitement, and idea that they could make their ideas into something tangible. They just don’t know the amount of consideration that goes into translating that.
Right now AI art is like Google translate poems.
It’s a tool. Artists will learn how to use it to create art.
People that say that AI could be used as a tool to help artists clearly as never pickup a pencil to draw. The thing that makes an artists voice, that makes that art theirs are the decisions they make while making their art.
When you are drawing something, you are constantly making small micro-decisions with every stroke of your pencil, and those decision and how you make them is what makes art so beautiful, as no two artists make those decision the same way and each artist as a certain consistency in those decisions that evolves with them as a person. As such, art is so much more than a pretty picture, it is a reflection of the person who made it. Those decisions are also the fun part of making art.
AI art doesn’t let you make any decisions: you type the prompt and out comes an image. An image made of an weighted average of human made images with a similar description. You have no say in the micro-decision the machine makes, you have no say on where exactly the pencil strokes go. Therefore this machine is useless for artists. You might say “Just edit the image!”, but that doesn’t help either, as editing the image still doesn’t give you that micro-level of decision making. Also, editing a flat image with just one layer is just as useful as any other image form any search engine image search result. Unlike text, which can be easily edited to be exactly what you want.
I know their might be some wait to integrate machine learning into art, but right now the tools available don’t do that.
People who say that AI can’t be used as a tool to help artists clearly have never tried using AI as a tool. Everything you’ve written here is untrue.
Artists can manually curate unique datasets to create LoRAs. They can draw from their own photographs, drawings, paintings, etc., and then coordinate prompts and parameters to blend their custom LoRAs with other creators’ LoRAs/models/checkpoints to craft something unique. The process can be even more involved with tools like ControlNet, where artists can sketch an outline of the scene by hand. I.e., you can have precise control over where the pencil strokes go.
The tools available right now do that
Hi, person here who’s drawn extensively with pencil as a kid but then slowed down. AI has reignited my passion for art, because unlike pencil or even digital drawing, you can iterate much more quickly, which allows me to do so while working a demanding job and having a life besides it. You are severely underestimating the amount of micro-decisions that go into AI art, and more importantly AI assisted art. If you’ll allow me, let me explain.
Lets break it down into levels of effort and creative input, I like to refer back to photography since it has some comparison:
- Empty canvas prompting.
spoiler
To me that is essentially the equivalent of taking a selfie or a random shot. On the scale of effort this is none to very little. But a prompt can be unique if you put an extreme amount of effort into specifying the exact details, just like a random shot can in fact be a very informed random spot.
You can put a rather massive amount of tokens into your prompt that all further specify this. At this point you can reasonably say you imagined at least the general look of the image before it was created. But you can’t say you had any part in actually drawing it or significantly determined how it was drawn. It’s basically impossible to get any kind of copyright protection over this unless you can back up your prompt very well, and only then would you get protection over your prompt, not what the AI drew.
- Image to image
spoiler
You can feed an image into the AI, you add noise to the image, and let the AI try to remove that noise (After all, this is the exact same as it does on an empty canvas, but that is completely random noise). This means that a large part of your original image specifies how the AI will further try to denoise the image. As such, you are guiding a large part of how the AI moves forward. No other artist would likely use the same input image as you, so human decision making plays a bigger part here.
To me this is the equivalent of choosing a location you want to take a picture, and then scouting several locations to see which one works best. That’s the micro-decisions sneaking in. You are giving the AI an existing image, either created by yourself, or from previous iterations.
At this point, you are essentially evolving an image. You are selecting attributes and design choices in the image you want to enhance and amplify. These are decisions the artists makes based on their view of how the final image will look like. Every iteration adds more decisions that no other artist would take the same way.
- Collaboration.
spoiler
The point where AI starts becoming a tool. You don’t start with point 1, or at least only use point 1 for brainstorming. You imagine the image beforehand, just like you would do with pencil. You can develop the image as much as you would like before going to the AI. You are making the exact micro decisions you are with drawing by hand, since it’s essentially the same up to this point. A photographer at this point would work out every fine detail before snapping the picture.
Except for the fact that you know you are going to be using an AI, so certain aspects need more or less refinement to properly be enhanced by the use of AI. Just like you don’t start the same if you’re going to make a painting, or a silhouette, or any other kind of technique. At some point, you return the image to the AI and mostly perform step #2, perhaps returning to brainstorming with step #1 if you want to add or remove from your existing design.
- AI truly as a tool.
spoiler
Now to make something actually with #3, you start doing this process in iterations. Constantly going back and forth between photoshop and the AI, sometimes you spend days in photoshop, other times you spend days refining a part of the image with AI. There are also additional techniques like ControlNet, LoRAs, different models, different services, that can drastically enhance how well you get to what you want. A photographer at this point would take as many shots as they would need using their creatively controlled setup, and find the best on among them.
Sadly, most people that talk confidently about how much they hate AI just know point #1 and maybe point #2. But I see point #3 and #4. And when I talk to artists that haven’t yet picked up on AI, but if they are aware (or made aware) of #3 and #4, suddenly their perspective also changes in regards to AI. But the hostility and the blind anger makes it quite hard to get through to people that not all art with AI is made equally. We should encourage people that want to use AI to reach the point of #3 and #4 so that their creative input is significant to the point it’s actually something produced by their human creativity. And this is also where an existing artist switching to using AI will most likely start off from.
Also, in terms of time. #1 might take seconds, #2 might take minutes to hours, but #3 and #4 can take days or weeks. Still not as long as drawing those same pieces by hand, but sometimes I wish it was as easy as people would make it out to be.
Right now it is not a tool. Right now it is an attempt at replacing artists.
It could be implemented in existing softwares in parts to make it a useful tool. Like a tool that could easily recolour parts of a fully rendered illustration, while still respecting the artistic intent with the form and lightning.
But right now it just spits out the blandest stuff, based on what it has identified as the most common denominators in art.
Right now it is not a tool. Right now it is an attempt at replacing artists.
A lot companies are using the AIl to attempt to replace artists, that does not mean that some artists are not using it like a tool already.
I know quite a few artists that are already training their own artwork into custom data sets.
Artists actually know it’s bullshit, not a tool
Until we have autonomous agents, AI art is human expression
Nope.
When humans make art, they are constantly making decisions. Decisions, decisions, decisions. With every stroke of the pen, with every color (not just a generic pink, blue or yellow, but specific tones and shades of those), with every everything they to while making that piece, they are making a lot of micro-decisions. Those decisions are made in respect to the person that is making the art, as their personal life experiences are what dictate how they make such decisions, even if they don’t notice it.
AI art is not like that. With AI, you type a prompt and outcomes an image. The user does not have a say in any of the micro-decisions that when into making that piece. The AI it self isn’t making any decisions either, it is just making the mathematical weighted average of what images with a description with similar tokens look like, and simply copying said decisions. The AI does not decide, it simply regurgitates previous decisions.
You are looking at the lowest form of AI art and then declaring that to be all there is. There is more than just pressing generate to a prompt. If you’re actually interested, I wrote a length post about it: https://lemmy.world/comment/12743504
Yeah you definitely don’t know what you’re talking about
I strongly disagree. 99% of the work is being done by an algorithm. It’s like if we had autonomous driving and you said you were actively driving all day, because you told the car where to go, and then took a nap in the car until you had arrived.
Photography is widely recognized as an art form, even though the scene exists independently and the photographer “simply” frames and captures the shot.
A better driving analogy might be Tesla’s current level of self-driving, where you have to keep a hand on the wheel and eyes on the road the whole time, and remain in charge of all the critical decisions. When someone arrives in a Tesla and says, “I drove here,” no one goes “ackchyually…” Even if we follow your analogy, it’s the individual’s idea to reach that destination- often a novel place no one has even been to before.
Creative individuals curate unique datasets, which can take countless hours of manual work, to create LoRAs. They often draw from their own photographs, drawings, paintings, etc., and then coordinate prompts and parameters to blend their custom LoRAs with other creators’ LoRAs/models/checkpoints to craft something unique. These creations exist only because they had the vision and put in the effort to realize it. The process can be even more involved with tools like ControlNet, where artists might even sketch an outline of the scene by hand.
A quick selfie might not be considered art, but intentional expression through creatively capturing a scene is (photography). Similarly, a quick generation via Copilot for a meme might not qualify as art, but intentional expression through creative generation certainly does.
AI art is human expression in the same way that the Gaussian blur tool is. It’s a bunch of math spitting out a pattern based on specific inputs.
All while currently being as ethical as the fast fashion industry producing scam versions of high fashion products.
It has the potential to be very useful in certain applications, but right now, all it really does is create Content to be consumed. Kinda like elevator music or that horrible Corporate Memphis style that has invaded every piece of corporate media/advertising in recent years. Soulless and without meaning. It’s pretty high quality slop, all things considered, but slop nonetheless.
I think it’s safe to say you don’t know what you’re talking about
