Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
Religion ruins everything.
Not really, it’s just that people can’t stand by this
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Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called Religion Poisons Everything. Same idea, long form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
Besides architecture. Cathedrals are dope. But everything else, yeah.
I don’t hate some older religious music.
Gregorian chants are epic
That first Enigma record is a regular in my listening because of exactly that.
Some religions. Depending on how you use the word. Legally Buddhism is a federally recognized religion for example.
And it has so little in common with how Christian’s use the word I consider it a misnomer. But I’ll keep enjoying the federal protections.
I wish you ppl would stop with your fetishization for any religion outside of the Abrahamic ones. Sikhs are just like any group of ppl and have committed fucked shit in the name of their ideology. Imperial (let’s invade and massacre Asia) Japan was Buddhist who used it as justification for nationalism, violence, and persecution. Which sounds pretty damn similar to what Jews, Muslims, and Christians do/did. And let’s not forget Hindu nationalism and their problematic caste system
And no this isn’t a bashing of religion as a whole because I personally find the argument that religion is the root of all evil as childish. I have no issues with anyone believing anything they want. It only becomes a problem when you feel the need to impose your belief on others. EVERY group including religion, race, class, ethnicity, sex, political party, etc is guilty of that
The non-Abrahamic religions stick with thr peace and love parts in the US because they are not the dominant religion. Any religion ends up being cooped into being used to justify violence when it is on top even when the core tenets are supposed to be peaceful and accepting.
This also tends to be true of most human organizational structures, but religion adds a layer that make it easier for members to accept extreme behavior by the people in their group.
There were Roman Christians who made passionate arguments for freedom of religion, before they took over. Not so much after.
Buddhism was probably 10% the justification for nationalism that Shinto was in Japan, so that’s a pretty bad example.
Also, using Buddhism to encourage nationalism ≠ Buddhisms fault
Every arguments you made can be used for Christianity
I would make the same argument, and say that radicalized religion is the issue, not religion itself.
Most every religion becomes radicalized over time, but that doesnt define the inital religious teachings.
So yeah, Christian nationalism ≠ Christianity’s fault.
People will fetishize anything and use anything to justify violence.
Buddhist practitioners can be as dogmatic as Christians, but having been brought up as one and studied the other extensively, Buddhism is not a religion in the Western sense of the word.
In fact there’s many teachings on avoiding dogmatic views in both ancient and modern Buddhism. Because dogmatism brings about the exact suffering we’re talking about.
Yes, Buddhists are as failable as anyone else. But the heart of the dharma begins with right view, which essentially means, don’t be dogmatic!
Which is the exact opposite of how I was brought up in a Christian family.
Buddhism is not a religion in the Western sense of the word.
Every religion claims that. Christians will tell you it is a lifestyle and a relationship. Jews will tell you it is a religion and culture. Buddhists will claim to be a philosophy and a mindset. No one wants to admit that they are just another way of doing X.
Of the three you listed only one doesn’t follow commandments given by an invisible supernatural entity.
And this exact false equivalence is why Buddhism isn’t a religion the way the West uses the word.
Cool we are just going to ignore all the Buddhists gods, like the seven headed snake (commonly depicted as the Buddha of Wednesday afternoon) and Maru. As well as the gods they borrowed along the way like Genash and about a million dead monks. We are also going to ignore all the passages in the Pali where the Siddathrata talks about his past incarnations and how he decided to decided to come to earth one more time to save humanity.
Hey remind me again, in the heart sutra what is the reason Siddathrata gives for the importance of giving gold to monks? I forget. Maybe I forget because he refers to it as a secret mystery.
Go ahead and continue. I want you to tell me more about what half remembered YouTube video from a fourlong secular Buddhist you saw once. I am just going to sit here and sort thru the hundreds of photos I have of me in South East Asia.
I’m only replying to your top paragraph because I sense a lot of hostility in your post and don’t have the patience at the moment to wade through it carefully.
Buddhism doesn’t extinguish other beliefs when it interacts with them. Nagas (the seven headed snake, who is not a God but more like a spirit, is a naga) already existed in southeast Asia prior to Buddhism. Likewise Genesh is a Hindu diety that already existed in India.
Some Zen Buddhist traditions even go so far as to draw parallels with Christian beliefs in the Kingdom of God and the ultimate dimension (a Buddhist concept for how everything is connected and interdependent).
Finally, I didn’t argue that Buddhism doesn’t incorporate the idea of spiritual beings (Gods, Demons, they can all be found in most Buddhist traditions). But they’re not beings to worship or revere simply on account of their spiritual status. Or to listen too without question like in authoritarian belief systems. So, it’s likely your post is a straw man but also possible you misunderstood my position and I didn’t communicate clearly enough. Either way, what you’re arguing against wasn’t my position. (See italics right above and below if you need clarification).
The Buddha said don’t take my word. See for yourself. And Buddhism is being incorporated under other names in all sorts of modern psychology practices. Because the shit works and is based on science (investigation of mental phenomenon with an open and unbiased mind) not dogma.
I hope someday you understand the difference. But I can tell by your tone that nothing I can say today will change your mind.
So this post isn’t for you. But the silent witnesses on the fence.
Take care.
Moralists with authoritarian leanings are the problem.
Plenty of those around nowadays who, instead of a religions, latch on to some well meaning cause and then proceed to try and shove other people around under the cover of said cause, bringing along the more tribalist (hence unthinking and easilly manipulated with the right words) members of the cause, all the way to pretty much pogroms and purges (though, fortunatelly, not normally involving killing people).
Whilst the vehicle (religion, some ideologies, politics, any “cause” supposedly beyond questioning including nationalism), being something that most people follow in a mindless way is ideal for such subvertion and abuse as an easy source of supporting usefull idiots for people indulging their lust for power over others) the reall problem is, IMHO, a certain type of individual who will seek social situations they can abuse to be powerful (all the way down to the school social bully who uses connection rather than physicallity to have power over others), so it’s really such people we should be weary of and alert for rather than their chosen vehicles.
Yeah absolutely, and the problem is they’ll always find an excuse - someone on here recently argued to me that since we punch Nazis we should also punch people who use words like ‘unalive’ because it’s an attack on our culture - he was being entirely serious too.
You can see people rubbing their hands in glee at every climate change story too and it’s scary, I’ve been involved with a lot of green groups and eco-positive movements which are full of wonderful people who really care about making a better world - then there are overly online lunatics who never lifted a finger to help native species or anything like that but have decided it’s a wonderful excuse to live out their most destructive and hateful fantasies.
Religion is a way of harnessing that awful impulse in people and using it for the benefit of a small theocratic aristocracy, it’s a way of saying ‘you can get away with being the awfull person you want to be if you do it in the name of our gang and to our enemies’
Buddhism has a talent for conversion by syncretism. Tibetian Buddhism is Buddhism meeting Tibetian Shamanism, Chan/Zen is Buddhism meeting Taoism (which already was very close), both Therevada and Mayayana are rather more Hindu, and what we’re seeing in the west is Humanist/Christian, depending on the practitioner. A good dividing line might be belief in reincarnation: Legit Atheists don’t care, hell-conditioned folks find relief, whereas originally the whole thing was Hindu and Buddhism calls it dhukka (suffering, also mind that it’s tied into the caste system) and promises a way to break out of it. So what was a jail in one context serves as a comfy blanket in another.
In that sense it’s very much a mistake to see Buddhism as a uniform whole, or western adoption as appropriation or fetish, or really infer terribly much about one strain of Buddhism from the other.
Then, second note: All those eastern things should be compared, if you want to compare them properly, not to western religion or churches but to that and the whole philosophical heritage dating back to at least Socrates. And gods know in that context we don’t need religion to fuck up, we’re still recovering from Descartes and like to ignore inconvenient truths such that Newton was an Alchemist. Christians like to ignore that all the stuff that is actually valuable about Christianity, is more than memes furnished to propagate the system (and doing damage while doing so), is lifted from the Stoics. Racism once was “scientific”. I could go on and on.
Shame about the genocide, huh?
That was perpetrated by Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar, whos actions are so fargone from traditional Buddhist teachings they can safely be considered not Buddhists IMO.
Ah like the Christian nationalists are so far gone they don’t represent Christianity right? Such a dismissive take against the reality of religions and their point to be a source of control over a population and society.
Yup
I used to think Buddhism was an exception, sadly it is not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence
As found in other religious traditions, Buddhism has an extensive history of violence dating back to its inception.
Buddhist sects as a whole are not exception, but I couldn’t find an example of violence at “its inception”. All the examples I could find are from much later.
Even religious groups hate organized religion. They just make an exception for the one they happen to be part of.
How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you happen to be born, the local religion always turns out to be the true one
- Richard Dawkins
Ricky Gervais said something super interesting to Stephen Colbert, who is a Catholic. It was something like “We actually agree on a lot more than you think. You think that thousands of other religions aren’t true. I think the same thing, plus one more.”
Early Christians were accused of being atheists by the Romans, since they didn’t believe in most gods.
Christians were atheist before it was cool
Sometimes I wonder what Abraham would think knowing literal billions of people worldwide worship the god he made up.
And what he thinks about how all the different sects all hate each other so much.
I know what he would think. “What the fuck??”
Nah, probably not something in Enlgish
The one thing most religions agree on is that all other religions should be eradicated from the world until only the true one remains. Turns out they are ALL right!
I don’t mind people going to Church and practicing their religion, as long as they stay in their lanes and they’re not trying to force their religious beliefs on everybody else. Trying to better yourself and your community is great, there’s a ton of really nice people out there who go to Church and are just all around good people. It’s all the assholes that think their belief trumps everyone else’s rights that need to eat shit.
Not minding your own business is pretty much why Europeans settled North America…
The Pilgrims love to say they escaped persecution, but really they were far right extremists who were all pissed off most of Europe wouldn’t follow their strict rules.
So they came to America and started pumping out as many kids as possible. With the goal to become the majority so they could force everyone to follow their rules.
We’re worse off because there’s no more “empty” land to send them all too. If we ever colonize another planet, it’s 100% going to be extremists overwhelmingly signing up to go first. Until then, we’re stuck with them.
The sun would be a good place, plenty of space.
None of my family were pilgrims. I don’t think you can just ignore the tens of millions of immigrants from Europe who weren’t pilgrims
I think their point is that the pilgrims set the cultural precedents for what would later become America, to which later immigrants would be beholden.
I don’t know how true that is, but I think “protestant work ethic” is at least one example of that sort of thing.
I think they can make their own point and there response was much different than what you just said
Except it wasn’t, your reading comprehension just sucks and you’re needlessly aggressive about it
Except it was but hey go ahead and make it about me.
my family
I don’t think
you made it about you, doofus
I think you’re a dumb removed that made a completely worthless point about your family not being pilgrims. How bout that
Nope but D for trying.
Would they have came here if the pilgrims didn’t first?
Like, not just “would they have wanted to” but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
50 years later, even 20 or 10 years later and it would be a different story.
The Pilgrims didn’t come here first (of the Europeans). They were beaten by multiple different European groups.
Like, not just “would they have wanted to” but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the French traders that came before or the Spanish pushing upwards from the entire continent they had control over?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
Not relevant to your argument. Also I am fairly confident you are mixing up the Pilgrims and the Purtains. But hey facts don’t matter anymore so believe whatever you want.
When you make comments like that, people stop trying to help you…
Although I’ve noticed a trend where people like you assume they “win” when the other person gives up helping you. Just a heads up that’s not what it means.
Oh that is what you call it. “Helping”. Cute.
“Staying in your lane” is the exact opposite of what Christians and Muslims are explicitly ordered to do. Convert acquisition is the primary objective of both faiths.
The Bible says if a family member considers another religion (or you just suspect they are) it’s your duty to God to kill them before it spreads to other people in your family.
It’s why ill never trust the people who claim they have to follow the bible literally. Either they don’t know what it says, or they’re absolute psychos.
Edit:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:6-10&version=KJV
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Well, I heard somewhere that it is written in the bible that those who scorn the bible will be visited by apocalypse, fire, earthquake, and flood which will obliterate your cities, but for those who believe in the bible will save themselves and find true redemption.
And I also heard somewhere it may have also stated in the Bible that the power and the greatness of God cannot be denied. Those who reject the Path to enlightenment must be destroyed.
Quote from the Bible?
It talks to Jews in ancient Israel about gods of nations that surrounded them.
Oh…
So some of it is outdated and we shouldn’t follow the bible literally?
I already don’t, you better go tell the Christians to shut the fuck up about LGBTQ…
Good job on discovering dispensationalism. About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
It’s hard to tell what you were trying to say, but any attempt to clarify that is going to make it really easy to point out how wrong you are.
So I don’t expect you to even try
Btw:
For anyone wondering what “dispensationalism” means, it’s a thing Christians invented so they can ignore the parts of the bible that they don’t agree with. While saying the parts they do believe in are the literal words of God and have to be followed.
It’s a shitty cop out
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
That’s just simple not true.
In the old testament it says that all homosexuals must be killed, and in the new testament that homosexuals cannot go to heaven.
How is that a positive light?
The Bible does not say that. What.
Huh, til
Exactly this.
Dont forget the part about having as many children as possible and convert them too.
There is no religion telling their servants to love their children even if they are not religious.
Honestly while I get that the whole “you do you” mantra is the politically appropriate line these days…
No, I’m fucking not ok with people practicing their religions.
I’m really not ok with people telling their children that it’s not only possible for dead bodies to get back up and float up into the sky, but that it 100% happened and is the only reason they aren’t going to suffer eternally.
I’ll not ok with getting together to talk about how men are inherently better than women and that it was fine that an old dude raped a 9 year old because she was mature for her age.
I’m not ok with passing along the instructions that who your parents were defines an appropriate social caste for the rest of your life based on the supposed mechanics of resurrection.
These are not appropriate things for a modern society, and honestly I’m tired of pretending that it is fine.
Yes, I think the right to have the government not interfere in religion is important, but that’s a separate issue from whether or not I’m ‘fine’ with the superstitions from an age when people peed on their hands to clean them continuing to be given a social pass purely out of respect for ancestral tradition.
The thing is the whole purpose of religion is to force beliefs into others to attract them into the religion and make them pay money. THAT’S LITERALLY WHY RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED.
There is no “Im religious but I let other live their lifes.” They are constantly being told to invite friends and family to convert them and to have 10 children, so the children can be converted too.
They need to start paying taxes too. Church is a business of graft.
I wouldn’t say I mind it but like seeing someone passed out from drug use I would rather they didn’t do that.
I’ve heard about the “rise of the nones” for fucking years now. I’m in my mid 30s. When the fuck will this trend translate into policy reform
Instead of having anti lgbt protests, or anti abortion protests, we should really start having anti religion protests. They are really a cancer to society.
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Exactly. Live and let live. Except religious groups are not letting other live their lifes.
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The problem is they are still part of the same group.
If there is an anti lgbt protest organized by christians or muslims or whatever, sure im not saying 100% of all christians and muslims are there, but even if its 1% of the christians or muslims, these 1% are still in church with the rest of the christians or muslims, and the remaining 99% are not doing anything about it. They are not coning out and saying “That 1% of religious people are not a part of us”. They all care is about growing their religious groups, and anything else doesn’t matter.
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First of all, I dont associate myself with people doing bad things to others. It’s really easy to do honestly. I recommend you to do it too.
Second, are you saying is ok for religious people to be antilgbt because other people are part of some group, by choice or not, that associates with people doing things you, or others, think is evil?
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We tried New Atheism That shit is toxic
anti-nihilistic protest too…
Something tells me you don’t know what nihilism is
Doesn’t fucking matter, now does it? 😅
and you are pedantic, pal.
Good point, I hadn’t thought of it that way
I don’t understand this comment. What harm has nihilism caused that is worth protesting?
They peed on The Dudes rug.
I’m really confused. Why is nihilism worth protesting?
What do you mean by this? Nihilism is the one true philosophy.
i mean it has its uses but calling it the one true ideology is not an educated statement
Creationist spotted.
13 nihilists downvoted this comment.
You really don’t understand what a nihilist is.
I think the only thing we lose is community – I’m jealous that religious people automatically have that.
The solution of course is trying to return to having neighborhood communities.
I used to have that really common thought of “I don’t care what you believe in. Just don’t try to push your opinion on me.”
No. It’s bullshit.
The very existence of religion is a psychological drain on society. We are all worse off the longer it stays around. There is no such thing as a good religious person and anyone who says they are religious I immediately distrust.
Yeah. It’s at the root of a lot of the problems with conservatives in the US. Religion trains people in believing because they were told to believe, and holding to these beliefs in the face of all suffering and hardship. It’s a gateway drug to conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions.
Gateway drug to conspiracy theories?
Religion IS a conspiracy theory
I don’t immediately distrust religious people but I do kind of roll my eyes and smirk a little bit on the inside.
If I’m lucky I can manage to keep the eyeroll and smirk on the inside. I’m kind of inelegant with social graces though.
There is no such thing as a good religious person
That’s a bridge too far for me.
Yes, faith is in and off itself detrimental to our society. Religiosity is a strong detrimental force, a mind-virus, a meme that damages the ability to clearly perceive reality.
But just like people who are infected with an infectious virus aren’t bad, not all religious people are automatically bad people. I don’t think they are good because they are religious, but that doesn’t mean they are not good or not religious. So let us not fall into the same absolutist thoughts as the fervent deniers of secular goodness.
The good ones enable the shitty ones.
Agreed.
I have met good people who are Christian. They usually don’t cowl all their behavior behind god.
There you’re friends dad, who barely knows you, who helps you get your car running so his kid and friends can make it to a metal show. He didn’t like metal, but he kept it to himself other than saying it wasn’t his genre, which is a fair statement.
Why did he devote an afternoon and a couple trips to auto zone? Because all in all we were good kids. He wanted us to have fun, but to arrive (and ultimately) come home safe.
The comment you are responding to is reactionary in nature and surely the result of a great deal of pain and trauma at the hands of the sort of people they are referring to. In this case, I think it is ok to let someone express their emotions and assume that they don’t really mean for it to be a universal statement.
Why would you assume they don’t mean it to be universally applied?
The biggest religions in the world harbor the largest rings of pedophiles, bigots and oppressors of women and children that exist.
There are surely religious people that consider themselves good and act in a moral way, but their support of organizations that allow and defend such abhorrent values and behavior defies that.
As someone put further down “the good ones enable the bad ones”. So while you or I might not take the same stance in our own lives, I can absolutely understand why someone might not want anything to do with religion or religious people.
I’m trying to be charitable to the person who started this part of the thread. There are most definitely perfectly good religious people out there though they are involved with toxic organizations.
Is being involved with a toxic organization not toxic? Or are you saying these people are victims of their religion?
IRT the first part, I think so. Even if you’re a genuinely kind person, if you support an organization that practices cruelty, you are supporting cruelty.
IRT the second part, I wasn’t saying that, but would agree with that statement–people are often a victim of their cultures.
There is no such thing as a good religious person
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world, and never pushed their beliefs on anyone else. “Good” and “evil” are very reductive and simplistic terms. Good people can have beliefs that are not good for society and they are not completely defined by that. If we go to that absolute then there isn’t a good person that exists. Pretty much everyone harbors beliefs, irrespective of religion, that when examined may be detrimental to society, they just don’t know their own blind spots.
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world
Being religious is not a requirement for doing good in the world. If the religion did not exist these extremely religious people you know could continue to do good in the world while not simultaneously supporting organizations that enable corruption, abuse, dishonesty, violence, oppression, etc, etc…
If anyone is still believing in these hokey stories or exploitative organizations they are either willfully ignorant to the world around them, gullible rubes who are victims of a centuries old scam, or actively benefitting from that exploitation.
I stand by my statements. Religion is a virus. It’s a net negative in the world that stands in the way of all human progress.
I was responding to you saying “there’s no such thing as a good religious person”. I don’t really disagree with the rest of your perspective, yet your arguing as if you assume I do. I think it’s reductive and crass to judge someone on a single data point. That was my primary point.
Well said. Though I will say that we need to stop giving religions passes for bigotry.
Churches in the US get huge tax breaks, can set up explicitly racist schools, or they can operate worse than the worst MLM. Some of the followers are somewhat to blame, but really it’s the organizations as a whole that need to be revisited.
Why should my tax dollars subsidize a church building where the pastor tells their congregation that people like me are an evil that should be purged from society? Why should they subsidize a pastor that has a private jet? Or a church that actively protects child abusers and/or wife beaters?
And frankly, it’s only certain religions that receive these sort of benefits. Any sort of native religion or niche religion won’t get half the benefits we give to multimillion dollar religions.
As a gay person, I have a saying that is similar: “When I meet someone who says they are conservative, I know that I have just met someone who wants me to suffer.”
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What is it you hate so much about religion? I could see disliking specific religious practices, but what problem does every religion share that makes you immediately distrust all religious people?
The conflation of personal belief with objective reality.
When someone tells me they are religious, they are saying the voices in their heads are more important than the voices in their ears. They are saying the vision in their mind’s eye is more important than the vision in their eyeballs.
When a schizophrenic tells us they are going to listen to the voices in their head, we should be worried. We should be worried even if their voices are currently telling them to be an upstanding member of society, because we don’t know what those voices will be saying tomorrow.
I find the comparison between religion and schizophrenia to be a little over the top. There is a big difference between believing something that cannot be proven true, and having actual schizophrenic delusions.
Religious beliefs don’t inherently impair your ability to function. And clearly they have some emotional function or value given that peoples around the world created their own unique religions without fail.
I really don’t see why you care so much about what people believe as long as their beliefs aren’t hurting anyone else. You are creating a problem where there is none.
There is a big difference between believing something that cannot be proven true, and having actual schizophrenic delusions.
I would argue the former is the more worrying of the two. We all know not to trust the schizophrenic.
But religious people aren’t just saying “God Bless You” when we sneeze. They are telling us how to vote, whether to wear masks, vaccinate our children, shun our neighbors, annihilate nations, and they are doing this on the basis of entirely unsupported, yet strongly held personal belief.
You are creating a problem where there is none.
Any suggestion that there isn’t a problem is demonstrably false, and your claim that I am creating the problem is gaslighting. I’m not going to waste a bunch of time pointing at a bunch of lesser religiously-supported evils to prove it. I’m just going to take them as read, and skip to the end: religious zealots fly planes into buildings.
But religious people aren’t just saying “God Bless You” when we sneeze. They are telling us how to vote, whether to wear masks, vaccinate our children, shun our neighbors, annihilate nations, and they are doing this on the basis of entirely unsupported, yet strongly held personal belief.
Ah, so your problems with religion are actually problems with specific religious practices. Its almost like you should just hate those practices instead of directing your anger at a very broad concept.
Your justification for distrusting all religious people is a small minority of Christians and Muslims. Grow up and treat people like people
Ah, so your problems with religion are actually problems with specific religious practices.
Where did you get that idea? I don’t believe that is a valid conclusion raising from my arguments.
It’s almost like you should just hate those practices instead of directing your anger at a very broad concept.
My “anger at a very broad concept” should have been a clue that those specific harmful practices I mentioned were exemplar, and not an exhaustive list. Further examples could be drawn from every organized religion, as well as from any and all individual “spiritual” beliefs.
No, my distrust of religious people is not based solely on those few examples of harm that I have presented, but on the underlying philosophical model, which could be characterized as a preference for hypothesization over experimentation. This is a “content of character” question, not a condemnation of specific religions.
which could be characterized as a preference for hypothesization over experimentation.
This is an oversimplification of religion. There is a difference between someone’s religious beliefs, and how they approach logic in a real world situation. A religious person does not just always make a hypothesis and assume it to be true no matter what. They are capable of being normal functioning human beings and differentiating from fact and fiction outside of their religion. If they aren’t capable of this, then I agree its a problem. But its not a problem with religion, its a problem with the person.
So your problem is that people are believing things you disagree with because it gives them a sense of fulfillment and community without harming anyone else. It could not possibly be more clear that you are the problem.
And no, it is not gaslighting to point out why you are wrong about something. That’s a ridiculous tactic to avoid the tiniest bit of self reflection.
I couldnt agree more. I have totally underestimated how nutty religious people truly are. I used to think Christians are good neighbours and boring law abiding citizens, but when push comes to shove and you really need them it turns out that they are just nutcases who are very adept at playing the good neighbour role. At least that has been my experience. I just can’t trust adults who believe in fairy tales anymore.
I totally get what you’re saying, but that’s not at all what religion is. If someone is listening to voices in their head, they’re not religious. They’re just crazy. I know many religious people who do not “listen to voices in their head” and it’s my belief that you’ve had terrible encounters and experiences with people claiming to be religious. But to generalize is not a good thing. I’ve met very sane religious people that do not do the things you say, I think it’s unfair of you to make such a sweeping claim that anyone who claims to be religious is immediately a crazy person to you. That idea itself sounds crazy to me
If someone is listening to voices in their head, they’re not religious. They’re just crazy.
I did not mean to claim religious people are “crazy.” What I described is “faith”, but without the virtuous connotations commonly ascribed to that concept.
Based on your comment, though, I would say I have accurately conveyed to you my state of mind upon hearing an individual proudly portray themselves as “religious” or “spiritual”. It is profoundly disturbing to hear someone readily admit a belief that their thoughts supersede reality.
To be fair, a large amount of Christians, including many at the church I used to attend in my younger days, will often recommend they “Ask God for advice” on big or troubling decisions or issues in their life, and those people will then say “God told me to do X” after they asked God for help.
So… I think there actually is a pretty fair amount of crazy religious types out there. The churches I’ve been to almost always had a big emphasis on getting to the point where you’re having a conversation with god, asking him for guidance, etc. I always interpreted that as being literal, and not a metaphor.
Religious people push their beliefs on people all the time, that’s what it is made to do so people can concentrate power. If a religious person has kids, you can guess how they are going to think. The whole idea is just complete bullshit and so stupid that anybody with a capacity to think critically knows it is false. Only people incapable of self reflection or thinking actually believe it.
That’s actually a little frightening, please refrain from making such blanket statements like this one. Surely a part of you must know this is wrong
I couldn’t agree more with the statement made. People who believe in fairy tales can’t be fully trusted.
Well, that’s very short-sighted and factually incorrect. I wish you meet more people and your outlook changes
I think it is somewhat hard to change my outlook at this point. My reasoning is that truly devout religious people have been infected with a mind virus. They may be nice people or pretend to be nice people, but there is also the mind virus, which is ultimately not trust worthy. In general, if hard decisions need to be made by a third party that potentially have a big impact on my life I’d not fully trust a religious person.
In daily life I am very friendly with a bunch of religious people, but I mistrust the religious part of them.
All I want is separation of church and state, like it’s supposed to be.
I don’t mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.
A crossfit trainer, an ex-marine, and a born-again christian all walk into a bar.
We know that, because they won’t stop telling everyone.
I’m surprised this comment has lasted 6 hours without anyone saying “there’s no such thing as an ex-marine”
I, too, am disappointed by the lack of offended ex-marine comments.
why ?
Because SEMPER FI !!! OOORAH!!
Clearly, you haven’t met crossfitters
Clearly you don’t own an airfryer
Or an instapot!
Or an ARCH user.
No, but my wife wants us to :(
Don’t give in. Just get a good oven for everything and it’s the same
Obviously you’re not a golfer
Or a bidet
If religious can keep to themselves
Since religions compete, that doesn’t sound feasible.
Although all religions are useless and shouldn’t have any privilege, only to be practiced in their own spaces, I am aware that not all religions compete in a proselytistic way. I understand that, for example, Judaism doesn’t proselytise and that “converting” to Judaism is even a long and difficult process, which makes me think it is like discouraging conversion, in some way, by making it so uphill.
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Pretty sure you can be born into judaism, though. Chances are, it is even the default scenario with even semi-religious parents.
That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids.
Yeah, I agree, to a certain point. Most Jewish people I know, though, aren’t religious at all but for following certain traditions that don’t even include eating kosher food. Of course that doesn’t include orthodox Jews, but I don’t know any.
As for the training of it (“That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids” and the “default scenario”), well, it’s the default upbringing in every family. Besides exceptions, conservative parents will raise conservative kids because that’s their growing environment, the same with more liberal ones, etc. That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing
That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing
I don’t see your point. How is brainwashing children ok when wololo-ing people is not? Even from an egocentric perspective, you have to live in a society.
I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall. Would you mind pointing at the part where I said so
itor even implied so?What I said is that that isn’t proselytising. It’s a different concept to raise your kids in a certain way and to go to others who already have a different faith (or none) and try to convince them to convert.
Of course, I know that everyone is born without any religion and by that account the limit is blurred, yet to raise a kid into one’s own faith and/or traditions is not the same as proselytising.
As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.
Edit: word
I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall.
Fair enough, you didn’t. I apologize. I lost track of the chain of posters and mixed you up with the first poster who didn’t seem to recognize the dangers of passing belief to children.
As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.
That may be case. Which is possibly why, historically speaking, Judaism doesn’t seem to be on the winning side. Which is bad, because it means opportunities for more fanatical, agressive religions.
IDK about equalizing religion and yoga. At minimum, the yoga exercises seem pretty useful for getting a flexible and healthy body, and (judeo-christian) religous ceremonies are mostly just a reason for people to get together, which many other activities can do as well.
The positives that people get from religion are mostly about the feeling of being part of a community, with their own lore, rules, codex and ceremonies. Just like DnD groups, with the major difference that some members actually belief all of that stuff, which is spooky and dangerous, because that opens these people to all sorts of other crazy ideas.
I mind the normalization of magical thinking. It’s the same reason I bristle at astrology and tarot and luck charms.
And that has a whole bunch of negative consequences, because these people won’t listen to reason if it inconveniences them
Unfortunately you can’t have religion without people trying to evangelize. It’s part of the problem.
But… you can. It already exists
its like they dont realize that christianity isn’t the only religion in the world
Yeah, sort of funny. A good number of religions are hard to convert to (or don’t take converts). Partially because religion in human history has been a tool for a community to distinguish why they are better than outsiders. A lot of older religions died from this exclusivity.
There’s a world of difference between “you should join my religion, we don’t eat fish” and “my religion says you can’t eat fish.”
That’s not correct. Where I live, religion is intertwined with daily life and yet nobody ever tried to talk me into anything
Agreed
Atheism and science are also a type of religious belief. Ultimately, as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else or trying to force their beliefs on others, I don’t care what they believe.
lmao
Could you expand your thoughts on this?
I’m always curious when this is said as to what is meant when Atheism and science are called religious.
“ThEy AlL rEqUiRe FaItH”
It’s a gross misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation.
Yeah, that’s the standard line they give.
I find it’s usually intentional misrepresentation.
Sure. To be clear, I’m an engineer and an atheist so I don’t mean it to attack either Athiesm or science by any means.
To start with, we cannot get true knowledge of the world outside ourselves by sensory perception alone. Rather, the way we interpret our sensory inputs is by applying it to some metaphysical framework of how we believe the outside world works.
As a small example, Descartes famously brought up analogy of a melting candle. A totally naive person being born into existence would see melted wax and hardened wax as two different substances. Sensory perception alone would lie to this person. Only by interpreting it through this metaphysical framework do we come to the conclusion that melted wax and hardened wax are the same thing at different temperatures.
This extends to deeper concepts that we can’t directly explain by our experience alone. At some point we stop using our own direct experience and expand our metaphysical framework using something else.
The thing that springs from that “something else” is religion, and in many instances it doesn’t necessarily encompass a concept of divinity or worship. In abrahamic religions it is the Judeo-Christian god. In Daoism it’s the belief in the Dao, an unexplainable force tied to the events of the natural world. In science it’s belief in the scientific method’s ability to produce objective truth with sufficient cooperation and experimentation. They’re all models of the outside world that stem from something beyond a single individuals sensory perception.
Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.
Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information. Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.
Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.
They’re both belief systems pertaining to knowledge of the universe beyond your immediate perception
Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information.
Of course. However, the central tenet of science doesn’t rely on scientific knowledge but the scientific method itself and it’s assumed power to find objective truth. Any questions about the viability of the scientific method to find objective truth tend to be aggressively rejected.
Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.
This isn’t necessarily true. There are some religions that have no authoritative text, central authority, or official dogma; they encourage new perspectives in the nature of the universe. Daoism is one.
Atheism? Sure some New Atheist branches practice it like a faith
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
It’s not, it’s a system that seeks to understand our world at a deeper level and predict future events.
It’s funny you mention that, though, because it brings up one of the difficulties in science. Measurements we base our scientific theories on rely on instruments, most of which themselves rely on other theories for reliable operation and interpretation of data.
One philosopher of science famously brought up the analogy of a surveyor who doesn’t understand magnetism. He attempts to use a compass as a surveying tool near some hidden source of magnetic field. Without understanding of the underlying principles of magnetism and local magnetic field, he would assume the compass unfailingly points north and the resulting measurements of the local geography would be wrong. Those flawed measurements might then be used by geologists, leading to the development of theories supported by flawed data.
There is always a degree of uncertainty in the instruments we use to develop and test our hypotheses because there is no such thing as certain knowledge in science. However, at some point we simply put faith in the scientific method and presume that our underlying theories are sufficiently accurate for our purposes and proceed accordingly.
Your surveyor story sounds like something a christian apologist would say, or someone who doesn’t know the difference between science and religion.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
Do you not understand what a thought experiment is? It’s an exaggerated example to better illustrate a concept, in this case the concept that reliable calibration and use of instruments is itself based on some underlying theory of operation.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
If it helps you understand the concept, imagine that the source of error is very weak, only disturbing the compass by a few degrees at any given location.
Doubt
“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain’t worth a shit – not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
― William S. Burroughs
When your congregation are loud bigots, racists, and assholes, or when your clergy fuck kids and cover it up, or when the religion as a whole surpresses or hates certain genders or sexualities… This is not a surprising trend at all to anyone reasonable.
I really cant wrap my head that religion still exist in this age. Like we have mass destruction weapons, rockets that go beyond earth, have proof of how vast the universe is and then what we fight over is how some God has dictated our life to be.
It’s so dumb and pretentious. Like nobody knows why we’re here, if there is a creator or not, what happens when we die, etc. Religious people act like they really have the answers to these when they are so comically wrong and fooled by people pulling stuff out of their ass.
Then, on top of that, to deny all of the things we have actually figured out about our universe and our place in it, the things we have actually observed. It’s a plague on humanity, stifling our progress.
Yes. Exactly 💯.
If the god was so powerful, where was he during CoVID? Why didnt the holy water treat COVID?
“GoD aCtS iN mIsTiRiOuS wAyS”
aka: Sky daddy doesn’t exist.
The only purpose religion serves is copium for people who can’t face reality/don’t want to think, and exploitation of power. If God existed and gave a shit, it would be clear, but it’s so obviously man-made to anyone who wasn’t brainwashed to be religious.
Every time I think about the fact that the belief that a dead body came back to life, floated up into the sky, and is expected to float back down at the end of the world isn’t considered to be a psychotic delusion because it’s so commonplace as to be normative I feel like I’m on crazy pills.
How?
How the heck do we live in an age of measuring how long it takes for light to cross a hydrogen atom, of seeing the complete observable universe, of building our own virtual universes - and yet intelligent people who are aware of or even involved in such efforts genuinely think magic is real?
I get that there’s a lot of people who just don’t have a good grasp on reality and think lizards running world governments is somehow a probable explanation for the state of things, but the part that destroys a bit of my soul is seeing people who clearly should know better but don’t.
How are we supposed to collectively solve real problems when so many are unwilling to come face to face with what is actually real?
Yup. Like how we tell kids there are no ghosts, we should tell me there is no God.
Well, at very least “there’s no objective evidence for either ghosts or God.”
100%.
I have that same problem with meat eaters too. How is it possible that we know we are brutally mass breeding and killing animals for food we don’t need, is fucking up the planet and isn’t all that healthy either, while at the same time also pretending to be civilized human beings that care about animals and the climare. And every time I raise the issue people make the dumbest excuses I have heard a thousand times…
People, once brainwashed into a way of thinking and behaving, can just be really hard to change even if you have all the arguments on your side.
I have the same problem with monarchy. The only thing that disturbs me more than the existence of royals with their archaic rituals and inbred lines of succession is the fact that there are so many people who love that shit.
Monarchies are also deeply intertwined with religion, which makes it extra problematic.
Growing up in a super religious family and watching all the nonsense up close is why I’m an atheist today. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MOTHERFUCKERS
Hail Satan and donate to your local Satanic temple
Also grew up in a super religious family (homeschooled pk) and joined TST 4 years ago.
IMO brainwashing children from the time they’re born into a religion that spreads hate is wrong.
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So there is The Satanic Temple which advocates for reproductive rights and separation of church and state and the Church of Satan which seems like some edgelord nihilistic thing.
But! I’m doing some googling and it seems that TSTs founder may be a Nazi. Like, an actual in love with Hitler Nazi. Reddit thread here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rabm/comments/ujw6w2/whats_everyones_take_on_the_tsts_lucien_greaves/
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Ya, I looked at several articles and Greaves seems very sketchy. Some of their chapters have broken off and a few of the top activists have distanced themselves from him. Sucks, I thought they were cool but the fact that their finances are closed and they try to host orgies for “real satanists”(wut) puts me off a lot.
Not that I could find with a quick search. I did find a “satanic forum” that seemed to be so populated by nazis that they were saying he wasn’t enough of a nazi for them.
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Religion is cancer.
The older I get the more angry the concept of God makes me. It’s hit the point where I hope I’m wrong, so when I die I can spit in his face and call Him a useless God
The idea that their “love” god kills, maims, allows horrendous birth defects, molestation, etc of children is one of the multiple proofs that god doesn’t exist. Oh, and wasps and mosquitoes.
The bible describes God as a manchild that gets upset and throws a tantrum when his playthings don’t function the way he wants them to. The loving, benevolent God only exists when things are going his will and then he gives out presents of kindness. It’s pretty much the definition of an abusive relationship with a narcissist.
Abusive narcissists control people, so why not make up a magical abusive narcissist to control a lot of people?
Oh oh oh, let’s make him omnipotent and gaslight everyone by saying all the abuse is just his way of showing love so we can excuse our own toxic traits as holy.
Speaking of controlling people, isn’t it an interesting coincidence that the religions that tend to survive are the ones that say that the political leader (king, emperor, kaiser, tsar, chief, raj) has a divine right to rule, and is chosen by god? Also, what an interesting coincidence that whenever the king has a divine right to rule, the religious head seems to have a cushy life? How unusual is it that the suffering of common people is something that is good for your soul, especially if you bear the suffering silently.
It’s like every successful religion coincidentally also sets up a society that’s easy for a leader to rule over. Crazy huh?!
Wasps pollinate plants and mosquitoes are an important step in the food web. Nothing in this existence is here for no reason and “god” to is show man’s own arrogance.
Don’t forget bedbugs.
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There are approx. 4000 religions out there today. Most of them have a rule saying “our religion is the right one, believe in the wrong one and terrible things happen to you after you die”. If one of those is right and 3999 of them are wrong, what are the odds of anybody picking the right one? Most believers don’t even put in the effort and learn all about the other 3999 to be sure that the one they picked is likely to be correct. They’re just gambling with a tiny chance of avoiding “hell”.
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Unless the correct religion is one that is really harsh on people who believe in one of the heathen religions, but welcoming of non-believers who nevertheless live a good life.
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Damn, this version of hell fucks.
I just have more and more trouble believing that actual functional adults believe in this crap. My mom is one of them, and I keep boggling at her ideas.
Like, if she misplaces her keys then finds them, she thanks her god for finding them for her. Never blames it for hiding / losing the keys, of course. She’s absolutely confident that her beliefs match what her god wants, despite hers being picking and choosing from the various holy books. Her church isn’t quite mainstream for her religion. Her beliefs don’t quite match her church. But, of course, she’s right.
A family friend of hers is dying of dementia. He is non-verbal and can no longer feed himself. Soon he’ll have to be on a feeding tube because he’ll no longer be able to swallow. This, of course, is her god’s plan. He wants a nurse to have to handle his waste and feed him with a tube. But, naturally, her god doesn’t want those same medical professionals to assist someone in dying with dignity.
She also literally believes stories that are less believable than fairy tales. Apparently some holy person didn’t eat or drink for years! This other one healed people! Another one predicted future events! We know these are true because other people from that religion verified it, and if you can’t trust people of her religion, who can you trust?
How can an adult stop believing in things like Santa Claus and underpants gnomes, but keep believing in this religious stuff?
