• MehBlah@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Left and right is just another meaningless tag to attach to people. Its really jerks vs everyone else. You can’t tell a leftist jerk from their right leaning clone. You can take the garbage they spew and substitute a few words depending on the what flavor they call themselves and hear nearly the exact same thing. Then you have the joiners. Who have to belong. Who will pick one side to belong. They by far are the worst of the group since they lack any spine to keep them honest.

  • Mango@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    How come only white people get to be fascist? That’s not very fair. What about China? Aren’t they fascist AF?

    • shneancy@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      according to some yes, but according to normal people though, antifa is just people who don’t want nazis around them, which should be everyone?

      • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        The fact that there is a “Yes” in the violence box (regardless of target) makes them violent extremists. Besides, from what I’ve seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

        • frazorth@feddit.uk
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          7 months ago

          Makes them violent extremists

          Only if you believe that any violence is extreme. I would disagree, punching fascists is fairly centrist and enjoys broad support.

          what I’ve seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.

          That is besides the point. You can be against facists and also against Nestle at the same time.

          • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            I do, and where I live being the first to throw a punch towards anyone for almost any reason is generally frowned upon.

            The reason that violence is dangerous in this context is that it can allow a violent minority to oppress and subjugate a majority. By removing it from society in general and de-legitimizing its use the influence of these sorts of people can be effectively minimized.

          • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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            7 months ago

            “Centrist” only if you use the sense of a median popular political position, which isn’t really what it means. Self-described centrists are actually conservative and tend to be weirdly* okay with Nazis.

            *weird if you don’t understand the link between capital, the state, conservatism and fascism

        • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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          7 months ago

          Centrists are currently overseeing a genocide right before our eyes and telling us that the fascists would be worse so we just have to suck it up and vote for them.

          Centrists are violent extremists

        • shneancy@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          do you think WWII was won without violence mate? If nazis could be reasoned with there wouldn’t be a war in the first place. You can’t turn the other cheek to nazis, it’s just not an option, you either fight back or you die.

          • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            That’s a terrible comparison. The same can be applied to any state with an aggressive foreign policy - or violent group intent on assailing a legitimate, elected government.

            Political violence instead tends to fuel and enlarge these sorts of radical, violent movements, ultimately worsening the situation even further. The antidote is de-legitimizing their entire strategy by enforcing non-violence on an institutional level, a peaceful transfer of power. This shows the general populace that the most dangerous thing in the room is in fact the violent extremist, who needs to be locked up the moment they break the social contract of non-violence.

      • NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network
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        7 months ago

        Since it is leaderless some factions of Antifa are extreme left, some are what they say on the tin and are are anti fascist, and some are crypto-fascists who have appropriated the language of antifa as a smoke screen , this last group has most of the ones who go on social media and stir up ship , and bait people, and try to turn peaceful protests into riots to discredit the protestors…

  • NekoKamiGuru@ttrpg.network
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    7 months ago

    Antifa has not been taking much action against the violence directed at Jewish students at colleges around the world , despite the fact that many of these Jewish students are not Zionists, they are just identifiable as Jewish and so are conflated into being Zionists.

  • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    I just want to point out that not all fascists are Nazis. Can I point that out without getting crucified?

    I will clarify that if you’re any kind of fascist, you’re a trash person, doubly so for Nazis specifically… But not all fascists are Nazis. Which the OP chart seems to imply.

    To drive my point home, I’ll quote Wikipedia: fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

    Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    Nowhere in there does it say that fascists are anti-Semites, nor white supremacist. Those ideologies are generally attributed to specific fascist ideologies… Eg. Nazis.

    Let’s not sugar coat what people are. If they’re Nazi fucks, let’s call them Nazi fucks.

    • pumpkinseedoil@sh.itjust.works
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      7 months ago

      And if they aren’t, don’t call them Nazis. For example I strongly disagree with the term “grammar nazi” that English speaking people sometimes use for people who point out grammatical flaws in comments or articles - that may sensitise people to view the term lightly, not taking it seriously when someone seriously is a nazi. Apart from that it’s a cruel joke towards the people who suffered under the nazi regime or died fighting it.

      • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
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        7 months ago

        I agree with this. We need better terms.

        Nazis were such a heinous and specific evil that we probably shouldn’t do anything that could lighten that term. At all.

        The part that makes me sad is that they appropriated the symbol of the swastika, and made it into a visage of hate and oppression. It’s a religious symbol for luck.

        I don’t think that reputation is changing anytime soon.

        The Nazis destroyed a lot, and corrupted so many things by association.

  • алсааас [she/they]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    The main job of fascism is to protect capital when the majority of the working population grows disillusioned with capitalism and might get the wrong ideas about socialist revolution and stuff

    • capital@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Don’t forget the speech one. Both said no on that one.

      The rest I’m on board with.

  • webghost0101@sopuli.xyz
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    7 months ago

    Am i that much more extreme for thinking that the best solution for Nazis isn’t discriminating against them but educating people to respect so Fascist ideal can no longer take hold?

    I know of intolerance for the intolerant, I’ve spread that message myself i am just no longer convinced that burying the problem into private conversations only (Which should be absolute free speech unless you want some sort of police control inside your home) is tackling the problem at the source.

    My wish is to eradicate this ideology once and for all not to hide it like we try to do with homeless in rich neighborhoods.

    • Match!!@pawb.social
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      7 months ago

      Education is better and preferred but ocne5 the Nazis are in the street they’ve already taken hold and need to be uprooted before we can go back to educating it away.

      • webghost0101@sopuli.xyz
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        7 months ago

        Once there in the in the streets and are expressing their hostility toward others it becomes self defense to push back.

        Nazis should be either

        • spouting their shit in private so their social circle gets the message that their guy is sick and probably needs therapy.

        • in therapy where no speech is taboo and the goal is to improve themselves.

        • in public, not expressing their shit because there starting to understand that its wrong, therapy is long term ongoing progress.

        Where they definitively shouldn’t be and i would regard as a hostile act.

        • marching down the streets in group with firearms.
        • mal3oon@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          The issue is the overuse of the word Nazi. Like the left is throwing at anything to try to make it stick, and we saw how Europe reacted to that. People have issues that are ignore by the ruling powers and we’re left there to fester for so long. From the grooming of Rotherham, to the sexual assault of Cologne, to the countless other instances that are facing EU resident’s life every day. There are issues that are not addressed. And just throwing “nazi” at anyone that try to bring these issues to life is inconsiderate and just circle jerking: “I think that sounds so cool to say Nazi on any random political post on the internet”.

          • webghost0101@sopuli.xyz
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            7 months ago

            I am only really talking about individuals with fascist ideologies that refuse to respect and assault the freedoms of others.

            You know, “nazis”. The word has evolved a bit since the Wehrmacht i do admit.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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            7 months ago

            People that solely focus on these “issues” are called “Nazis” because by all objective measures these are rare and inconsequential events that got way over-blown in the media and serve no other purpose than to distract from the real issues in Europe. If you can’t or don’t want to understand that you are either extremely stupid or are indeed a Nazi that is pushing an agenda. These “issues” are not being “ignored” and left “festering” because the real and only issue there are the people that think that these are “issues” aka Nazis.

  • Lvxferre@mander.xyz
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    7 months ago

    Guys, regarding white ethnonationalism: the key word here is egregious.

    Sure, you got fascists who are not ethnonationalists. Or who are ethnonationalists towards another “race”, such as the Hindutva ideology. However, white ethnonationalists are an egregious example. They exemplify the issue with fascism amazingly well, because they’re the worst of the worst, and they’re extra common.

  • TheOriginalGregToo@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    It’s so frustrating to see something like this and realize that an increasing number of people align their views with the anti-fascists, thinking they are the “good guys”, without seeing the inherent hypocrisy of the beliefs they hold. On paper the anti-fascists portray themselves as accepting, but the reality is quite the opposite. Generally speaking they are authoritarian pricks who will label anyone who disagrees with them as racist or bigoted simply to undermine their point of view. No idea should be above criticism.

    I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I’m not entirely sure what classifies as a “dissenter”. I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

    If you scream down viewpoints you don’t like rather than seek to understand, if you use violence to intimidate, if you seek to wield power to destroy your political enemies, then YOU are the bad guys. ANTIFA does all of these things then hides behind the ruse of being “anti-fascists” because they are cowards and are no better than the fascists they claim to fight against.

        • fossilesque@mander.xyz
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          7 months ago

          It’s more like this:

          I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

          I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

          • MLK

          https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

          I don’t personally like to pretend to be civil with people who do not extend the same courtesy, even if they are ignorant of their own contradictions. Good friends tell people they are wrong when they need to be told.

    • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      I think privileged white people are the largest problem in society these days. I think violence should only be used as a last resort to self defense. I prefer minorities because I find them to be hard working with strong family values. I think freedom of speech only works if it is universal (especially extending to those I disagree with). I’m not entirely sure what classifies as a “dissenter”. I have tremendous respect and appreciation for Jewish culture and the way in which they build community. And yet I have been called a fascist/racist/bigot many times online because I respectfully find the actions and beliefs of ANTIFA abhorrent.

      While I would never put words in Angela Davis’ mouth, I think this more or less covers it. Please avoid the temptation to skip forward or you won’t appreciate what she is bringing together to make her final point. It’s not a very long video, only about 3 minutes.

      https://youtu.be/2HnDONDvJVE

    • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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      7 months ago

      Assuming the most benign interpretation: sorry but you are confusing justified self-defense with what actual fascist do. I guess you are familiar with the paradox of tolerance, but I recommend you thinking about that one again in the context of Antifa.

  • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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    7 months ago

    Horseshoe theory is dumb, but it’s really just an observation of the loudest ideologies on the far left and far right, which both happen to be authoritarian. Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system. And it’s true that real-world instances of both Fascism and Communism have been authoritarian, and so they share some things in common. It isn’t a particularly nuanced or deep understanding, but it is true that authoritarian forms of gov’t are authoritarian. The difference lies in the details. Communists used authoritarianism against capitalists and the nobility, and fascists used it against minorities. Horseshoe theory conflates “authoritarianism” with extreme Left and Right-wing ideologies.

    • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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      7 months ago

      Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.

      Do you consider anarchists and anarchocommunists to be extremists? Or authoritarian?

      • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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        7 months ago

        Extremists? Sure - they are, by definition, as they are outside of normal, status quo political ideologies. Authoritarian? No of course not. Anarchists are anti-authoritarian. I’m only saying that past communist states (namely PRC and USSR) have been authoritarian and fascist states have also been authoritarian.

        Obviously modern neoliberal states are also authoritarian, but the classic horseshoe is almost exclusively applied to fascism and communism. Since it is incoherent as a political theory, I’m sure you could apply it similarly to any polar opposite ideologies and come up with something they share in common.

        • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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          7 months ago

          You might want to consider that those who call themselves leftist may not actually be leftist.

          For instance, “Nazi” is short for “national socialist”. They are clearly right wing, however, if you pay attention to their actions.

          So-called socialist states are generally deeply repressive and that is not left wing. They were better at branding than the Nazis, but for instance the USSR neutered the soviets - the workers’ councils after which the state was named - very soon after taking power. The state owned rhe means of production, not the workers. It was state capitalist. After that workers had to strike just like under any other capitalist regime, and they were brutally repressed by the state.

          Under no honest description of socialist does that qualify. So they failed on both the “Soviet” and “Socialist” parts of their name.

          Horseshoe theory is just capitalists happily buying into the USSR and other state capitalists’ self mythology about being socialist because it’s good propaganda to scare the workers they rule over into believing that there is no alternative to neoliberalism’s stochastic brutality.

          • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            If we understand “Leftism” to be about a relationship to the means of production - namely one in which the workers/plroletarian class owns the means of production - then the USSR certainly was socialist/leftist to a significant degree.

            Since leftism is about that relationship to the means of production, that also means that a government can be both Leftist and Authoritarian. We can discuss to what degree an ideal leftist government should be “authoritarian”, but that is less a conversation about the economic aspects of leftist political ideology and more about the political philosophy around personal freedoms, freedom of speech, etc. - none of which are completely cut & dry.

            One could easily argue that some degree of “authoritarianism” is necessary to protect greater freedoms at the expense of lesser ones - that could be a coherent pro personal freedom and pro authoritarian argument. One could also argue that the anarchist conception of personal freedom is doomed to fail without an “authoritarian” power hierarchy to protect those freedoms. All I’m saying is the question of to what degree the power of the state should be limited is by no means answered.

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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              7 months ago

              Ownership means having power, having control, over the thing you own.

              An authoritarian government that maintains control over the means of production, no matter how much they nominally “belong” to the workers, inherently alienates the workers from having power and therefore from ownership. In that sense it is state capitalist.

              You cannot have it both ways unless you change the meaning of words like “own”, or “authority”. Your own description of leftism precludes authoritarian methods.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.

      Why is this only necessary at the extremes? I don’t want to accept the current system I live under, but I’m coerced into complying with it through force (police).

      • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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        7 months ago

        I’d argue that: 1) what is extreme changes over time, 2) a system of government being extreme de facto means it will have less support, if it had more support it would cease to be extreme, 3) the less support a system of government hass, the more force will be required to maintain it.

        I am also under a system of government that is oppressive and monopolizes violence, but if the government had less popular support, I fully believe it would proportionally ramp up the oppression and violence. In fact, I’d argue that it’s currently happening in the US.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          7 months ago

          I don’t know that I agree with your definition of extreme. On the one hand, there’s popularity of various ideas, and on the other, there’s how much the idea differs from the way things are currently done. It’s possible for an idea drastically different from the status quo to be popular, but it would still be considered extreme because of how big of a change it would be.

  • Redredme@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Im just a tad disappointed that according to this graphic fascism (which isnt exactly the same as nazism but whatever) is strictly a white issue.

    Which, if you look at the world, clearly isn’t the case. Fascism is everywhere.

      • Redredme@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Sigh.

        Nazism isn’t the same as fascism. Nazism does care about your ethnicity. Fascism does not.

        But whatever.

        • heavy@sh.itjust.works
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          7 months ago

          You’re not the smartest guy in the room, I think most people understand that.

          I don’t think you understand that you’re white knighting (haha) for white people like they need protecting or something, like that’s the concern here.

          It sounds like you don’t give a shit about countering fascism, you give a shit about defending white people.

          Just be mindful that you’re in an echo chamber environment here.

          Or don’t, keep fighting the fight for the whites 💪