You’re still not saying the magic words harris. Repeat after me: ‘i will enforce american laws regarding war crimes until israel obeys international laws regarding war crimes and genocide’. You’ve waited too long and i doubt you’ll do it before you need to tomorrow.
Its easy to see how she’s more focused on the israel hostages than Palestinian population, a group who as our own diplomatic core has informed the admin shes a part of, will be returned in a ceasefire agreement. Hamas already agreed to return them, at least before israel starting offing those leaders first. Only israel is the issue.
Actually I’m pretty sure you just demanded that she look into the disagreement in Israel. Which she did, so you owe her now. Stop changing your demands! It’s your fault they ignore the left. /s
child, shes well aware of whats going on in gaza. they, the biden admin, knows exactly the situation and they know its a genocide. They’ve known most of this year. I certainly didn’t demand she look into it. I’m demanding she apply the US law as written to israel.
Sorry to have accidentally trolled you, I was being sarcastic.
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Out of the people say that shit that aren’t Russia shills, the only ones left are morons who like pretending to be morally perfect. They really like feeling falsely superior.
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Sounds like you misunderstood me entirely but good to know your first reflex is being a jerk
He was agreeing with you…
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Libs joking about genocide. Standard fare. Reflects their representative.
Lol a comma would really help the end of your first sentence
(It’s the second, not the first)
(And now this comment is pointless)
Good that needs to happen.
All the one-issue voters: uhh… what now?
Well, now Democrats will start coming up with excuses for why conditioning or ceasing arms sales to Netanyahu isn’t within her power.
EDIT: I already voted for Harris.
It is within the President’s power to use executive authority to halt the military financing to Israel.
(While this could maybebe overruled by congress, it would be a huge blow to Israel in the interim)
So in May the (majority Republican) House passed H.R.8369 - Israel Security Assistance Support Act:
This bill specifies that no federal funds may be used to withhold, halt, reverse, or cancel the delivery of defense articles or defense services to Israel. Also, no funds may be used to pay the salary of any Department of Defense (DOD) or Department of State employee who acts to limit defense deliveries to Israel.
This bill attempts to force the completion of arms sales to Israel. This basically amounts to the legislative branch meddling directly with how the executive branch conducts foreign policy and defense policy, which the White House objected to (completely correctly). Biden threatened to veto the act if it were sent to him. The bill was placed on the Senate’s legislative calendar on May 21, 2024, and has not been voted on. It will probably not go anywhere at this point.
The executive branch has already been actively delaying some military equipment transfers to Israel, that’s why the House pushed this act.
So if the Dems wanted to repeal this bill, they would need to control the house, correct?
If Democrats controlled the House the bill would likely not have passed there in the first place.
In any case it doesn’t matter because the Senate will probably never vote on it, and even if they did and it passed Biden would veto it.
It’s also important to understand that this bill would not add any new arms transfers to Israel, but only compel the completion of existing transfers which the executive branch had chosen to withhold.
Ultimately, the point is that Congress does not have the authority to force the transfer of US military equipment to a foreign power. The disposition of military equipment is the purview of the Department of Defense, and trade with other national governments is the purview of the Department of Foreign Affairs, both of which report to the President.
Nah, the bill was never passed in the senate so it isn’t law at all. Just unenforceable posturing.
Thankfully it costs nothing to not send weapons.
This is essentially the crux of the issue. Congress can designate funds in the budget for aid to Israel and they can specify what the funds are for (military equipment, humanitarian aid, loans, etc), but they don’t have the authority to perform the actual transfer of the funds (or material paid for by the funds) to Israel, that falls under the authority of the executive branch. Congress can provide the money but they can’t actually force the spending of the money.
Praise be to the system of checks and balances.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvotes, I think you’ve got it right.
people are panicing because harris might lose and acting like morons towards anyone who doesn’t unequivocally support her atm. add to that many people don’t understand how the system works on top of it. 🤷 its no matter internet points are useless to me anyway. =)
It is within the President’s power to use executive authority to halt the military financing to Israel.
It is, yes. But Democrats are fucking outstanding at inventing bureaucratic hurdles to stand in the way of things they ran on but don’t want to do.
Obama promised he’d close Guantanamo…
This seems about the same
Maybe start saying it outside of Muslim heavy areas and more than two days out and it won’t look so much like pandering
Obama was prevented from closing Gitmo by congress. IIRC, a big part of the problem was how to handle the criminal cases; all of the prisoners (“detainees”) in Gitmo have been tortured, the chain of evidence has multiple breaks in it, and it’s highly debatable that they can be tried in any kind of court. Yet intelligence agencies remain convinced that the remaining prisoners are guilty of terrorism. Congress didn’t want to move any of them to the US, because they didn’t want purported terrorists being held on US soil because ???
The president isn’t supposed to be able to act unilaterally, but we’ve allowed that Overton window to shift towards heavily authoritarian.
He was prevented by language in bills he signed, and that was only after the Republicans took control in 2010. The failure to close Gitmo was just the same dithering and cautiousness that doomed or degraded many of his other optimistic goals. The whole reason Gitmo is bad is because it can be governed by unilateral executive decisions. It’s one of those situations where he had real power to decide how things worked, but wanted everything to process through a slow bureaucracy rather than taking a more active role.
That might all be true but it only really illustrates my point - this too isn’t deliverable. But lying can buy some votes
It’s not lying under any conventional definition of lying though. Saying something is a lie usually indicates deceptive intent, along with a knowledge–or a reasonable belief–that something you’re saying isn’t accurate. If I believe that the earth is flat, and I say so, am I lying? Or am I just wrong?
Biden said that he would cancel student loans; he’s done everything in his legal authority, and a few things that weren’t, to try an cancel them out. Do you think that the fact that SCOTUS prevented him from doing so makes it a lie? Or was he unable to follow through due to factors that he couldn’t directly control?
Who can blame the president for ruling over a hidden torture camp full of innocent people? It’s out of their hands. That’s just how USA works. \s
It’s out of their hands.
Uh, yeah, it literally was. Unless you’re saying that you want the president to be able to do whatever they want, even when a majority of congress and courts say no.
For fuck sake… HE TRIED
As someone who is frequently called a single issue voter over a number of different issues:
Ummm what? Her statement was insultingly empty (the entire article is air) and the title contradicts what she’s been saying for 6 months. I’m not suddenly about to put a Harris billboard on my lawn
I’m not suddenly about to put a Harris billboard on my lawn
Do they have billboards saying “reluctantly voting Harris out of necessity”?
Do they have billboards saying “reluctantly voting Harris out of necessity”?
They should. The overwhelming majority of Biden voters voted against Trump more than for Biden and I’d bet the farm that, while probably to a significantly lesser degree, Harris is going to win in the same way.
The Dem leadership hasn’t updated the pillars of their electoral and policymaking strategy since 1992 and it really shows.
Even when Harris or Walz say something truly based that gets the Left hopeful for real change in the right direction (which has happened a few times), some apparatchik always takes pains to point out that it’s “not part of the platform” 😮💨
Press releases walking back good things she said was kind of the hallmark of her primary campaign in 2020 too.
Two days before the election with no substance?
With no time for AIPAC to completely rat fuck the election and get Trump elected. Give her some time to help prevent the destruction of democracy and if she doesn’t move on the issue then she’ll reap what she sows.
This was my thought as well. I get the feeling she’s been fairly quiet on the subject until now due to the power AIPAC has in our politics. If she spoke out this whole time, I’m sure they would have thrown all their financial and political power against her.
I hope we’re right.
Me too. Although even once Harris takes office, AIPAC would still have a lot of power and influence. But I’m choosing to remain optimistically hopeful here.
All we need to do is freaking STOP standing in the way of the UN. How many times has the US vetoed the UN in attempts to assuage the horrors being visited on these Gazan people.
Yep, hopefully Harris will be able to direct the US reps at the UN to stop doing that much.
Unfortunately it seems there’s a law that requires the US to defund where the UN recognizes Palestine as an independent state (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/unesco-votes-to-admit-palestine-over-us-objections/2011/10/31/gIQAMleYZM_story.html / https://archive.is/67xzK ) but I don’t think that applies to the scenario you just discussed.
(I also don’t get how that law works with the US supporting a two state solution - how can the US support a two state solution, one of which being Palestine - and defund those who recognize two states too?)
You’re not dont worry. But heres hoping she somehow wins either way. Otherwise we’re fucked.
yawn thats magical thinking. If that was the case she’d have committed to enforcing America’s laws on not arming genocidal forces if she was serious about. All she did was trot out some tokens and say the same thing she’s said the entire campaign.
It’s hilarious how libs think this is any different from what genocide joe has been saying for the past year.
Yeah, Trump would send flowers, right?
Nothing? This is nothing new from her. Its no commitment…its vaguely worded trash.
Easy, they refuse to believe her.
After all, if she didn’t sow discord by pointlessly undermining the president while an essentially powerless Vice President, she must love genociding brown people even more than Trump does somehow.
they refuse to believe her.
I mean like, I would believe her if she rolled out a plan for how the US is going to stop funding Israel? Or a plan for holding the Israeli military accountable? Or maybe I would believe her if she didn’t hold a press conference last week gaslighting us that Israel has to right to defend itself?
I agree. I’m just hoping they’ve made the calculation that remaining ambiguous on Gaza is a better electoral strategy, and once in office she doesn’t intend to spit in the faces of her base the way Biden has.
It’s her or Trump, and there’s zero chance Trump will make things better, so anyone who cares about Gaza and has a realistic outlook on the situation should support Harris.
I’m just hoping they’ve made the calculation that remaining ambiguous on Gaza is a better electoral strategy, and once in office she doesn’t intend to spit in the faces of her base the way Biden has.
Progressives should start working on a primary challenge the moment the polls close. Democrats should never have the opportunity to claim a mandate on this issue.
Maybe. I’d prefer we give her a year or two to see how progressive she’s going to be. We’re forced to work within the Democrat party for now, and if we’re seen as a bunch of malcontents, centrist Democrats will see that as an excuse to reach out to more “gettable” moderates and conservatives instead
Maybe. I’d prefer we give her a year or two to see how progressive she’s going to be.
If she shows some progressive bona fides, she’ll have no problem. Without the threat of a progressive challenger, I’m afraid we’ll get 4 years of centrists screaming that she’s the most progressive president since FDR and expecting everyone to buy it, like they did with Biden. And that’s at best. At worst, they’ll gleefully announce that moving to the right works, double down on Gaza, and THEN announce that she’s the most progressive president since FDR.
We’re forced to work within the Democrat party for now, and if we’re seen as unpleasable, more centrist Democrats will have an excuse not to even try.
As though they have ever tried.
EDIT: Responding to your edit:
and if we’re seen as a bunch of malcontents, centrist Democrats will see that as an excuse to reach out to more “gettable” moderates and conservatives instead
Democrats do that in response to the sun rising in the morning.
After all, if she didn’t sow discord by pointlessly undermining the president while an essentially powerless Vice President
She had no problem disagreeing with him when he called Republican voters garbage. She had no problem differing from him when she promised to put a Republican in her cabinet.
It’s funny how she can move to his right as much as she wants, but never to his left.
Biden calling Trump voters garbage was a gaffe. His own office walked it back. It’s way easier to depart from the president on a throwaway line than on a year-long policy that an all-too-large and ignorant chunk of the population still supports.
I’m not satisfied with her public position on Gaza so far, either. But, since the notion that Trump will make anything better is ridiculous, the only plausible course is to get her in office and then pressure the shit out of her.
And in case anyone’s thinking it, the idea that Jill Stein successfully spoiling into a Trump victory somehow means he’ll take her foreign policy advice is magical thinking.
I forgot that I need to append “I already voted for Harris” to anything that isn’t fawning worship, or Democrats’ sanctimonious lecture reflex kicks in.
Problem is it’s not believable you voted for Harris after doing nothing but speaking out against her for months now. Guessing you voted for trump just based on your words on lemmy
This is exactly why this discussion is insufferable. You have literally been told how this person voted but you are so convinced by your own bullshit (ie that anyone mad about US support for genocide must, for some god damn reason, support Trump) that you don’t even believe it.
I cannot wait for the 6th so that we can have this conversation without it getting sidetracked by overly loyal democrats condescendingly explaining how first past the post works as if we don’t know already.
Restoring comment after the content that earned the removal was itself removed.
I didn’t read this
I’ve already voted for her, but I don’t believe her.
This is a vague plea for peace without any indication of what things she believes (and more importantly, publicly acknowledges) would be “in her power”. Is the limit of her power sternly worded letters, arms embargoes, or intervention? Because I’m pretty sue she’s not opening the door for US peacekeeping troops in Gaza, though that would be in her power (at least for a short term).
But like, with Harris we get to see if she’s willing to do anything meaningful, and maybe as public sentiment continues to turn against Israel she’ll be embarrassed enough to do something. It’s not a hopeful position to shoot for, but it is technically better than the alternative, and there other issues at play where the difference is not so limited.
The campaign has been changing its tone depending on audience. In places like Michigan they’re doing this, but outside seing districts they’ve been banging the war drums for Israel.
So the lack of faith in the messaging isn’t without warrant.
Yes specifically when they think her ads in different states with different messaging are not going to be shown around.
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6364100748112
She represent the regular two faced career politician, which should work in regular election, but the Israel genocidal work in Gaza and war crimes expose these politician.
You linked to faux news. So i will not click the link nor does anything that you said have any meaning.
This is just a stupid take because almost all news agency are own by someone trying to push different agenda.
Yes okay a biased “news agency” would be fine. But faux news is just that, fake news.
Bibi hates her, so that’s a good start.
Considering that him and Trump talk all the time, I would say he isn’t excited for Harris. He knows when the war is over, he is fucked. Remember, he tried to remove their supreme court before the war.
3rd party voters: “I’m not voting for Harris until she condemns the Gaza war!”
Harris: *says she condemns the Gaza war*
3rd party voters: *desperate scrambling sounds to find something else to be a single issue contrarian*
I’m really hoping I’m wrong about that, but I’m seeing it on this thread.
Have you been to a protest or talked to pro-Palestinian voices. The demand has always been to stop weapons shipments to Israel, even before October 7th. This isn’t moving the goal posts, the goal posts have been there for decades, it’s just both parties have and continue to ignore them.
I mean for context something like 70 million early voters already cast their ballot, so this quite literally cannot change their vote and that number is roughly half of the entire votes cast the entire last election. So in all likelihood, roughly half the people you’re mad at can’t react at all because of how long she waited.
Third-party voters as a whole don’t matter nearly as much as the handful of Muslims in Michigan that this message is directed towards. Also, this message is not significantly different than what she’s been saying since the DNC. Her big misstep wasn’t her messaging on Gaza; it was ignoring the Uncommitted leaders entirely.
They do not want to condemn the war.
The want to end the genocide.
there goes the goalposts
No, the goal post has always been that she’ll enforce America’s laws regarding weapon shipments until israel behaves. This is not that. This ‘ill continue the Biden policy of committing a genocide and periodically send sternly worded letters that do nothing.’.followed by ‘israel has a right to defend itself’ platitudes.
Harris needs to commit. And this is not that. No goal posts have been moved. Shes trotted out some tokens and said the same thing shes said every time.
Empty rhetoric about “war” has never been a worthwhile “goalpost”. We’ve had more than a year of that already from genocide joe.
It’s always been about ending the genocide and reversing zionism more generally.
Debunking the strawman is not moving the goalpost.
You do not get to set the demands for other voters. And then pretend they have been met when they are clearly not.
Why should they give a fuck about your “demands” when you change them immediately once met?
Kamala already promised not to impose a weapons embargo on Israel. She still does not call it a genocide. No demands have been met.
What does she mean by everything in her power? Nuking Gaza so the “war” ends? Send in the American military to fight in Gaza?
Liberals will see no problem choosing polite, handwringing genocide over rowdy, bombastic genocide. They fall so easily for style points and optics completely devoid of substance.
20 years from now, when the only choices are between a dem who wants 20 genocide and a republican who wants 21, liberals will still be frothing at the mouths, blaming anti-genocide leftists for the country’s devoluton into fascism. This is the logical conclusion of liberal “pragmatic utilitarianism”
In biology, one learns about a certain species of caterpillar that can only cross the threshold of metamorphosis by seeing its future butterfly. Proletarian subjectivity does not evolve by incremental steps but requires nonlinear leaps, especially by way of moral self-recognition through solidarity with the struggle of a distant people. Even when this contradicts short-term self-interest, as in the famous cases of Lancashire cotton workers’ enthusiasm for Lincoln and later for Gandhi, such efforts not only anticipate a world beyond capitalism, they concretely advance the working class’s march toward it.
Socialism, in other words, requires nonutilitarian actors, whose ultimate motivations and values arise from structures of feeling that others would deem spiritual. Marx rightly scourged romantic humanism in the abstract, but his personal pantheon — Prometheus and Spartacus, Homer, Cervantes, and Shakespeare — affirmed a heroic vision of human possibility. But can that possibility be realized in today’s world, a world where the “old working class” has been demoted in agency?
-Mike Davis
The demands haven’t changed. They’ve always been, and this is really quite simple; stop sending weapons to Israel while it’s engaging in genocide. The goalposts have not shifted.
Was she supposed to single-handedly end the war in Gaza as VP to earn your vote, or does she specifically need to declare war on Israel to satisfy you? You gotta know that isn’t a winning campaign promise.
Aren’t most polls against the genocide, so it would’ve helped? Even the goalposts you’re providing don’t acknowledge it as a genocide.
Step 1: FOLLOW US LAW AND STOP GIVING THEM WEAPONS
Let’s see if she ever gets this far. I am not holding my breath
The genocide in Gaza.
It is not useful for Harris to call the genocide a genocide because it would hurt her chances of being elected. If Trump is elected instead of Harris, the genocide will continue until all Palestinians are dead.
Since we want the genocide to end before all Palestinians are dead it is not useful to demand that Harris calls the genocide a genocide because that hurts the chances of the genocide ending while Palestinians are still alive.
This reads as a joke but it’s actually true 😂
I understand how politics works, and I can understand some of the many complications and consequences involved, but words have meaning, and meaning conveys truth.
So if you want to represent the nuanced, complex (one sided) world of real politik, then that is certainly a good exercise. “in my power” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, especially since she’s committed to, let’s say, bend the truth quite a bit with this sentence.
But skepticism alone isn’t analysis. I think by saying this she is trying to lure over “Uncommitted” conscientious objectors who are on the fence and may withhold their vote. But by not speaking strongly enough, she will never reach the vast majority of those people. This assurance feels empty to me. She’s not an ardent supporter of Palestinians, but who can see the future? Events are rapid and things change, "We exist in a context, all that.
But there are disadvantages to people only taking political action by way of their votes, and maybe this is one of them.
I hope she wins. But if she doesn’t the dems will blame those same voters, along with Greens (which, whatever) and any other third party voters instead of coming to grips with their many many failings over the last 8 - 10 years.
So if you want to represent the nuanced, complex (one sided) world of real politik, then that is certainly a good exercise.
No, unlike your argument, I’m not arguing we split hairs over semantics.
she will never reach the vast majority of those people.
Unless.
She committed to ending the war in Gaza. If the war ends, the genocide ends. Tell people.
No she committed to do everything in her power to end the war. Very different. Sometimes “splitting hairs” isn’t just semantically, especially when it is political. Tell People.
Your argument is splitting hairs. If you care about the Palestinian people then tell people the truth. Harris wants to end the war in Gaza. Trump wants Israel to finish the job. Tomorrow is election day. It’s time to help the Palestinian people in the most useful way we can. By getting Kamala Harris and Tim Walz elected. Splitting hairs over Harris’ words is not useful.
Way to stay on message
Since we want the genocide to end before all Palestinians are dead it is not useful to demand that Harris calls the genocide a genocide
Fucking liberalism in a nutshell.
No, it’s utility. The idea that we can achieve our goals despite not currently having leftists and socialists in power. Not wanting to get your hands dirty isn’t even a political position.
No idea how you plan to achieve your goals when your first step is Holocaust denial.
Genocide and war aren’t mutually exclusive. The Holocaust happened during WWII.
Seems a little too little too late for it to move the needle much, especially given how much early voting has happened. Harris’s position on Israel has been so bizarre, pretty sure Israel has even been actively working against Democrats this whole time anyways.
Way to late and it’s ridiculous she waited till desperation to take a good stance.
It’s basically the same pattern Biden followed. Even when he did fits and starts of good things, it was way too late and only felt like he was doing it for political reasons, not because he had a change of heart.
Biden very clearly was saying things to try and keep a lid on domestic unrest. He literally parroted, (and still does) whatever Netanyahu says. Then he always blames Hamas for Netanyahu tossing in a known deal breaker at the last minute, (occupation of Gaza), even though Biden said he doesn’t want that either.
Biden’s entire conduct over Israel has been in bad faith.
Harris could not possibly have the same line as Biden so far because she doesn’t have control over weapons shipments or negotiations. All she can do is call for peace, and yeah those calls get tainted when your boss is saying the exact same stuff in bad faith. But if we aren’t smart enough to realize she cannot possibly be operating in bad faith at his level until January 20th, then we deserve everything we get.
Peace has always been her call. We have yet to see how she would work for it because she isn’t in the hot seat yet. We have a choice between someone calling for peace, but not really pro Palestinian, and someone calling for ultra death squads.
Grow up.
With early voting and the roar of everything this is too late to make a huge wave difference I think.
What’s up with the grow up comment. I’m just talking about the strategy being ineffective. It’s completely random.
IIRC she said she wouldn’t remain silent, and then didn’t really say anything committal or concrete.
Apparently no one in the comments has been paying attention. She’s been saying these same lines about Gaza since the convention speech.
There’s been a lot of FUD about it and .ml has been running wild denying anything even remotely pro peace from her.
At any rate literally all we need at this point is a president that tells Netanyahu he either accepts a negotiated return of remaining hostages and withdraws or he loses our weapons support.
But Biden is also doing his best to pump up their ammo supply so the next president actually doesn’t have the influence Biden could have had. It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames. They’ve been shamelessly giving Israel our best military technology with no regard to their political situation. College students called this as the most likely path 2 decades ago, and here we are appearing to be caught by surprise.
Fun fact, there’s a 2008 law that specifically forces the president to give Israel all the best military hardware.
It was passed by W on his way out the door, and due to the Democratic party being compromised as hell, there’s never been enough votes to get rid of it, and any time the president might want to hold things back, they get sued under that law.
Biden and Obama both could have used the leahy law on day one. We have evidence going that far back that Israel systematically commits war crimes, including occupying Palestine in an illegal manner. To be clear there is a way they could have done it legally. But things including extending their own, civilian, legal system into the occupied areas preclude it being legal.
It’s 2024 and I’m ashamed we didn’t learn from supporting South Africa and Iran into the flames.
We did learn. Just all the wrong lessons. Iran taught us that you can ride a wave of hate for 50 years. South Africa taught us that you crack down on the BDS movement day one and keep the media on lock for your Apartheid friends.
I hate that you’re right. I want to live in a country that’s actually moral.
It’s completely in her power to stop whitewashing a genocide and creating false equivalences by calling it a “war”.
Not until after the election. She’s walking a wire trying to get nonMAGA republicans to vote for her in order to save Democracy. They need to at least pretend to believe she won’t completely abandon Israel. If she can beat Trump, she’ll then be free to call a genocide a genocide. In any case, Trump wants to end the war by letting his buddy Bibi nuke Gaza and just fucking kill all the Palestinians. A “final solution” as it were.
Not if she wants to get elected. I’ve said since the convention that they’re trying their best to not piss off either side and that’s mostly been their strategy. Even when she’s releasing statements on the death of Hamas and Hezbollah leaders she’s very careful to say, as an American leader, I’m glad this dude, who killed Americans, is dead.
Of course that was evidence of her being a flaming Zionist to people who want Trump elected.
Like her ads I’m sure she has a more pro Israel slant in other cities.
I’m glad all of the users I’ve tagged in the past month decided to congregate in this thread to show everyone how full of shit they’ve been this entire time.
Well done.
Yeah im sure you’ll condemn netanyahu as a dictator with an illegitimate claim to power. Im SURE you’ll stop selling billions of dollars in weaponry to them. Seriously though, vote Harris
