- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- technology@lemmy.ml
My how fast the AI tech bros move to protect corporations but don’t move to protect the average coder, artists, writers.
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Man, the one thing I was interested in, the decompiling of abandoned software to get old games and software back, is being limited.
It’s like watching the Nazi party ban the rape of Jewish women in 1944
When it hurts jobs, AI is the future, when it hurts rich friends needs moderation.
This was literally destroying indie games. Look at the deluge of slop that came out when ‘sort items onto shelves’ kicked off as a game type.
Now only the people that have enough money to pay for the privilege get to use it!!! Hurray?
That was always the plan
sounds like adobe made some calls.
But it can still do it. Just not for us.
AI finally comes up with something I would use it for, and so of course they have to lock it down. Ha! Fuck these clowns.
“AI is going to make everything free!!” Proceeds to make video games free. “No, not that, shut it down!”
No new tech will make us free if it’s controlled by the slaver class.
The open models aren’t controlled by them though.
Exactly, and that’s why they fucked the ram priced before they kicked into high gear, to repress us
But we do own RAM, do they plan to buy all of it indefinitely? All sorts of other businesses still need computers so they will be buying them even if they cost more, and when they replace them the old ones can be sold off.
There is even the possibility of crowd sourced AI, I know AI horde exists although I think its pretty small and I haven’t touched it in a few years now.
This is what winning the AI race looks like.
This is part of the reason they don’t want anyone running models locally offline, the models and their entire business are commoditized
A struggle for power.
They’re flailing at this point, personal computers are catching up to “good enough”.
Only the AI Bros are like “ackshully you need a zero data retention frontier server, check out my tokens” fuck off
- LLM bubble pops.
- Market gets flooded with $200b worth of hardware (this is how much is not used to Zitrons knowledge).
- ???
- Subscription based LLM gets cooked.
hardware that people cant USE, they are solely used for AI in those datacenters, its just going to be e-waste.
You used to be able to BIOS flash workstation GPUs to make them somewhat usable for gaming… not sure how far these AI GPUs have diverged from gaming cards these days and if a BIOS flash could make them playable.
They don’t even have headers for soldering a display output to them. They’re purely a compute card.
AI GPUs have specialized very heavily for neural networks, including things like going down to 8- or 4-bit floats in favor of more parallelization. Most of that hardware is just useless for graphics tasks at this point.
Government bales out AI companies and the bill they write to do it will make local LLMs illegal.
Piracy is illegal and they are of course doing a great job at stopping that…
I think you are right, but that seems VERY unenforceable.
Successful enforcement doesn’t look like catching every pivate LLM owner.
Except the people I hear running “local models” report a lot of hardware, like a half dozen graphics cards. The common person is screwed, they have a smartphone.
Two or three years ago sure. Now…not even close. Tons of models run on basically shit now. Especially with MOEs. I run new lightweight models on an i9 and 64gb of ddr4 ram with a 4gb quadro card…in a laptop from 19’.
I think this is why a lot of these tech bros are saying silly shit about suggesting people need to rent from them. That’s their entire shtick. Otherwise they got nothing else.
Got some references and keywords for research?
This guy does a great brain dump on how little is needed to run LLMs on basically old junk.
Bails
Local LLMs will never be illegal, because that genie is out of the bag
With what money? No one is buying bonds. The US would have to print so hard it’d cause hyperinflation, which still means the bubble pops
Those poor billionaire corpos! Why won’t somebody think of the poor billionaire corpos!?
The “There’s no way we can stop our agents from going rogue” people, suddenly have a burst of ability to reign in their creation when it suits their interests.
Funny that…
Does anyone think that perhaps what they are afraid is that source code of such clone would be compared to the original and show evidence that maybe the model was already trained on the code of the game?
I think this is definitely a concern, yes.
I think it’s very likely that these models are effectively being tricked into retrieving source code of projects from memory of seeing the actual source code in the biases. This is why some project are much easier to uncover than others.
I’m no expert, but if my understanding of LLMs as ‘probability calculators’ is correct, then if you prompted one properly to produce code which does x (a Photoshop function for example) and it had only been trained on one example of this (the Photoshop source code) it would reproduce the PS source code because that has the highest probability of that being the correct ‘answer’.
This is baasically correct, though what the models actually produce is a little more randomized than that. Though, if there aren’t any words that are anywhere cllose to being likely to follow next, then there won’t be a any other valid options to choose.
They aren’t being tricked. They are doing exactly what they were designed to do
Fair fair. Ih suppose what I mean is that it’s not really reverse engineering so much as it is recollecting from training samples.
Where would they get the source code from so they can include it in the training data in this scenario?
Looks like everywhere companies mandate employees to install copilot or equivalent.
I think originally they were saying they won’t be using the proprietary code for training, but I don’t trust those companies when they already broke laws.
From the stolen math research for tha NS, from the company response that they can’t guarantee that the model didn’t train on the mathematician sessions, we know for sure they are using the inputs for training lol
This is full conspiracy from me, but could the terms of service for github grant the right to “enhance tools” based on private github projects. These then get moved around as ‘anonymized’ data to train off?
The models don’t store access to their training data. So no, there’s no source code in the model to retrieve.
It’s long been proven that LLMs can produce exact copies of their training data. Not every piece of training data, of course, but enough where spitting out exact replicas of proprietary code is a legitimate concern. Not to mention that copies don’t need to be exact in order to be a problem.
The models are essentially a giant lossy compression applied to the training data.
They don’t store the loseless version of the training data sure, but that doesn’t mean it can’t reproduce something close enough to it, it’s literally how the whole thing works.
My understanding of it is that it’s far more complex than “lossy compression”. Of course it can generate text that is close to something in its training data, but I don’t think people have the right mental model if they think the model itself somehow has whole chunks of code in it. It does not.
My understanding of it is that it’s far more complex than “lossy compression”. Of course it can generate text that is close to something in its training data, but I don’t think people have the right mental model if they think the model itself somehow has whole chunks of code in it. It does not.
So why can they recreate entire articles from the New Yorker and complete functions from the training set? Don’t fall for the slop laundering.
I’ve never seen any proof of this? They can fetch data and present it as their own maybe? But models don’t store training data verbatim. It’s like 6+6 and 4+8 both = 12, but they just store 12 and how it got there is unknown.
I’ve never seen any proof of this? They can fetch data and present it as their own maybe? But models don’t store training data verbatim. It’s like 6+6 and 4+8 both = 12, but they just store 12 and how it got there is unknown.
The purpose of Al is to allow wealth to access skill while removing from the skilled the ability to access wealth.
The purpose of capitalism…
The purpose of capitalism is to leverage capital (assets) for private enterprise. It’s objective seems accumulation, but it’s really just human nature. People hoard, and wealth seems akin to hoarding.
Pretty much. Regardless of AI, workers, white, blue, even managers, are nothing more than a cost account to the majority of corporations.
So they took out two of the most useful things that LLMs can do.
Yes, apparently they’re suddenly worried that stealing other people’s work—which is their business model—might backfire on them. I assume this is a measure intended to give the impression—in the face of one of the countless lawsuits against Anthropic—that they’re actually taking licensing or intellectual property rights seriously. I can’t think of any other explanation, because Anthropic simply can’t afford to have questions raised about where the training data used by their models actually comes from.
Pulling up the stolen ladder before anyone can steal it to use to steal more stuff while it’s still enforceable to do so.
Mabey just make all ladders illegal, unless you have a government contracted monopoly.
The entire idea of copyright is going to be tested at many levels, and most people don’t even understand why yet.
Interesting times.
Government contracted monopoly
You mean like when that town tried to force an xAI data center to not use methane turbines, and they got shut down by the government because the military was allegedly using Grok?
No, they just enabled Chinese LLMs to be the forefront of reverse engineering. Because people will do what they want to do.
No, they just enabled Chinese LLMs to be the forefront of reverse engineering. Because people will do what they want to do.
Their goal is simple… everything they are doing right now is striving to make the US ban individual hardware.
Chinese models are open, anyone can get them… stopping the flow of data on private computers is impossible. Hardware however is getting more expensive, hardware manufacturers are already deciding to move out of the consumer market on their own. The US government is already establishing laws to prevent shipping foreign hardware into the country.
Altman’s giving the game away when he does this “it’s so sad that all this ram is sitting around in people’s home computers unappreciated when it could do so much more in a data center”.
The idea is to sell the message "AI is out of the bag, and it’s world ending technology. Basically they are going to imply that the guardrails in their data centers are the only thing that’s preventing all AIs from destroying the software industry, and teaching teenagers to build bombs and hacking the CIA, and the only possible response would be to stop all direct to consumer hardware sales with anything more than the bare minimum needed to stream a PC out of a data center.
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This is all pretty obvious and I agree. They can no longer protect their imaginary property if they allow it to be ran in your computer’s memory or stored on your computers hard drive.
The cat is definitely out of the bag, as in their own AI models are making them obselete. The race to make money before the end is what motivates them. They will ride the roller coaster to our societal demise because they only care about money. These people shouldn’t be in charge of a small fast food restaurant let alone multi-billion dollar companies.
If private hardware becoming scare would send America back to the stone age, completely choke technological progress.
probably, but don’t you know, everything in the cloud is the FuTuRe!! owning things yourself is the way of the past, it’s like physical disks you can resell or something.
Sad thing with the exception of price, it’s probably not that far off that most average people’s usages will be similar. but yeah the idea of paying by the hour or cpu grade etc… for a computer is going to suck… and be far more expensive for gamers, hobbyists etc…
world ending technology.
Read that as “democratic and free word ending”, and it’s on purpose as they saw cyberpunk and wanted to become a mega-corporation that rules the world too.
mostly quoting their own people who are going out on the news and saying “yeah we really believe that there’s maybe a 10% chance we destroy the world with this”.
Just ran into Qwen’s version of guardrails myself, and am quite annoyed. Guess I’m gonna have to look into abliterated models next.
Rules for thee!
I’ll use whatever fucking model does the job for me. If that’s some Chinese shit run on bedrock so be it.
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AI clean rooming
The only way “AI clean rooming” is possible is if the model was trained with verifiably clean room code. Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini, etc only exist because they took our work without paying or asking for permission. Anthropic has a profitable business because they’re reselling the thing they built with our work. They built X with Y, but they didn’t pay for Y. It’s as clear an example of copyright infringement as possible.
So is your article about “clean rooming” specifically, or is that just a term you’re misuing here informally to refer to LLM-powered reverse engineering in general?
Anthropic has a profitable business
You sure 'bout that?
There S1 claims so, but, also, it’s financials cut off… suspiciously right as a bunch of pre payments for their services came in, and before they deferred payments for compute went out.
Except that it doesn’t? They claimed 33bn in revenue, but they had 104bn net loss. So no, they were not profitable. In their IPO they literally claim to not be profitable and that they don’t ensure they’ll be profitable “in the future”. Not the near future, just the future as a whole.
So they were claiming to have been net profitable on certain things in q2, which again, more to the point, is them trying to shine a turd and make it look like they’ve got a future.
I heard, big part of those losses are the debts paid in stock, so when their stock rises the debts rise and the difference is written up as losses.
Not an economist though, so I might be completely wrong
My article was about how copyright law actually supports projects like PhotoCraft and ArtCraft (the software that reverse engineered Photoshop and other adobe products) and REA because, under current law (which is a long case review), clean rooming is okay. It goes back to the Compaq case and a few others. It relies on the idea that copyright protects expression, not function, and if you put a team of lawyers in a room with software and they purely describe the function of the software, and they hand that document to a team of engineers, that is fine under copyright law because it breaks the chain of expression. There’s much more detail, but my argument is that AI clean rooming projects are good for consumers in this regard, but that software patents for would be used more expansively in the coming years to counter those products. And so on and so forth. There are like eight more steps and guesses after that, but that was the gist.
As a personal thing, I agree with your conclusions for the most part. I just think there’s a lot more to consider in getting there. The road is much more complex than most people give it credit for.
I would counter that “AI clean rooming” is not clean rooming, because they are feeding the actual code to imitate directly. Even ignoring the training, it has, verbatim, the object code and is trying to make code that compiles to match the object code. It isn’t deriving the functions to a spec and the using the spec to go back to code.
I would further counter that the Compaq case dovetails with the idea that APIs are broadly not copyrightable in and of themselves. Compaq cloned a thin ABI layer, which was not considered substantial by itself, so the argument rested with whether the implementing backend necessarily infringed in resemblance or if resemblance derived from merely following a similar asked. If you clone an entire application down to the human presentation, I think no “clean room” argument would overcome that you cloned far more than some thin application to library interface.
So you’re saying PhotoCraft is okay because it counts as a clean room reimplementation of Photoshop, yet you’re not commenting on whether LLM-generated code is tainted by the training data, and thus can never be considered “clean” for the purposes of clean rooming?
I’m not a lawyer, but my understanding of clean rooming has always been that the engineer can’t have specific knowledge of the thing he’s reimplementing. For example, those lawyers in that room can’t describe a Microsoft product to an ex-Microsoft engineer, because that engineer has seen Microsoft’s code base and may use that knowledge to inform their design. Likewise, you can’t give the engineer a copy of, say, Microsoft Office’s source code to use as a reference.
Yet an LLM trained on Microsoft Office’s code base being used to reimplement Microsoft Office counts as a clean room reimplementation? It seems to me like the benefit of the doubt in that situation should go to Microsoft, and the engineer is the one responsible for proving they didn’t use the part of the LLM trained on Microsoft code…which is impossible.
…although tbf Photoshop isn’t open source, so its not obvious how much of its code exists in Claude or ChatGPT or whatever. Maybe the code leaked in the past, or maybe Adobe engineers who use Claude inadvertently shared company code, and that ended up in the training data.
(Also, for the record, fuck Microsoft and Adobe)
A lot of companies have started using AI a lot lately which means they have given access to their codebase to various AI agents. There’s no way to tell if those AI agents haven’t already incorporated that code into their training data.
Like if Adobe uses Claude to help with Photoshop development then Claude most likely has access to the Photoshop code. The clean room argument would never stand.
The only way it wouldn’t be clean rooming Microsoft code is if the AI had seen literal actual Microsoft source code.
I feel like the only real way to do AI clean rooming is to have the AI run the decompiler, clean up the output if necessary, and then write a spec document that incorporates no part of the code only a description of what it does and its constraints.
You then reimplement the code by hand, only reading the spec.
20 year old patents would be an improvement time-wise over 100+ years of copyright, but a horrible thing given how much more annoying it is to get them invalidated.
Yeah, I tried asking it how to flash a modded tv webOS and it flagged the chat.
I asked it to fuzz my own code (a jwt integration) and it flagged the chat. There was an unbounded buffer that could have been exploited, but it’s happy to hide that since I’m not a large corpo.
Honestly the shit Claude does is unusable anymore. It’s developed a habit of dropping requirements when problems are hard now.
ETA: Chinese models and Mistral were happy to help. I discovered I could use eMuhdra against an iot device in my house that way, I found various input errors, these things have improved my security so much more than they create risks.
I am a hard worker and workaholic. Is it just me or does Claude try talking you out of doing stuff? It will be like 10am and Claude/opus will try this: "great session , you deserve some rest, go enjoy your family and we’ll come back to it tomorrow, have a good night Wut?
I work with embedded devices that use canbus. Last week it was happy to read the manufacturer’s published .DCF files for a couple of joystick panel interface boards. Not anymore, conversation flagged and halted any time I get near them.
Claude. You can download these files from the manufacturer’s website. They only describe how analog and digital inputs get converted into canbus packets. I am not trying to hack Adobe here. Nope.
Oh well, DeepSeek, Mistral, GLM, Beam et. al. are all happy to read these files and continue work on the project. Anthropic’s usefulness to me has ended, it was nice while it lasted.
That reminds one, my dishwasher leaked so I went to download the manual from the manufacturer.
That got me a ban from Cloudflare. Apparently downloading a pdf from a website is bot behaviour.
American tech companies are going too far.
Duh. Which psycho reads manuals?
Claude. You can download these files from the manufacturer’s website.
If it’s on the publicly available internet, they probably did, without permission.
these things have improved my security so much more than they create risks.
The fact they exist is what significantly increases the risk.
